Magnus, I'm feeling Bo out as to what sort of answer he is looking for in this matter, personally, I feel that the term "value" has a wide application in regard to intellect and difficult to Determine when and where random inorganic rounding to tip the scale in one direction or another Leads to an actual conscious "decision" to tip the scale in one direction or another. This mechanism for latching seems to work simularly throughout the levels in a seemless Mesh with the only difference being conscious decision vs. molecular rounding determinism Where the bonds which are "valued" are the ones which have more static quality than others, Giving it the ability to latch and build. -Ron
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Magnus Berg Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 2:59 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MD] Thrice-baked MOQ Hi Ron Ron: >> Perhaps I do not understand the genesis of this argument. You called >> for thoughts about The origin of intellect. You poo-pooed the large >> majority of the responses on basis of "Mystic rubbish". Pirsig >> divides reality into 4 levels inorganic, biological, social and intellectual. >> All of which work on the concept of "value". You seem to be making >> the argument that Intellect came before social and that social is a >> result of intellect that it was reasoned That gathering in societies >> was valued more than individual survival. Bo: > Are you sure I am the target here, it looks distinctly like Magnus' > about an intellectual level before the social level. It would have > been useful with a quote of the points in question, at least I am > strongly opposed to any shuffling around of the level sequence. Even if Bo has left for a while, I must stress that I've never said anything about the intellectual level appearing *before* the social! The level dependency is of the outmost importance to the MoQ and to me and I have on the contrary defined the social level much broader than most for exactly this reason. >> The question being Then is: are >> human beings social creatures by instinct or by intellect? When >> pavlovs dog Begins to salivate at the sound of a bell is the dog >> intellectualizing on the biological level? Is adaptation, biological >> intellect? > > Of course, this reaction isn't intellectual, it need not be dogs, > humans may salivate too from sights and sounds too, it's our > biology kicking in. > >> Hell, Pirsig eludes to intellect when he makes the statement That >> molecules "prefer" the patterns they assume suggesting that >> intellect of some sort even at The inorganic level. One may even go >> as far as equating value with intellect in this regard. So what is >> your take on this Bo, at the risk of you handing my head back to me >> on a platter. > > No risk for heads on platters, as said I think Magnus is the guilty > one here. No, it's just Bo's misunderstanding again. And I have no idea why he suddenly starts blaming *me* for Pirsig's statements? Pirsig's use of verbs like "prefer" and "values" does not imply intellect. But it *is* pretty central to the MoQ nonetheless. Such words are better at describing reality since words like "cause" are too definite. Even if physical events seem to be very deterministic, we know that they aren't. So it's only possible to determine a probability for the outcome of an event, never certainty. I have a certain feeling you're also reading some kind of mind into those words, and then you make the SOM assumption that mind implies intellect. But in the MoQ, I rather think that some sort of "mind" can be attributed to both subject and object in all quality event, even inorganic ones. This kind of mind is of course not intellectual in any way, and perhaps we shouldn't call it mind at all to avoid lots of other associations, but let's do it for a while here anyway. Anyway, instead of having those words imply intellect (via mind), we should only let them imply this MoQ kind of mind and then I hope they make more sense. BTW, after some further contemplation about this, I'd say that DQ has very much to do with this MoQ kind of mind. Magnus moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
