Platt, master baiter, everything is spin. The Greeks had a word for it "rhetoric". (You have read Pirsig, haven't you ?)
The point is not the argument (logic or rhetoric - it's all spin), but the values aimed for in the outcomes. Quality. (To get a good perspective from an NHS insider who experienced recent changes, and who can also write, rather than journalists and commentators, I've recommended Dr James Willis many times. Ant even quotes me quoting Willis on his Pirsig web-site, or used to anyway.) Ian On 4/24/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Quoting Ant McWatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > Ant McWatt observed April 23rd: > > > > Beyond the Talk Radio smokescreen, it appears to me that you don't want the > > results of your own pet political ideas (i.e. the ideas of those right-wing > > business gurus who advised Thatcher in the first place to privatise the NHS) > > re-imported back to the US and who can blame you! > > > > Platt then commented April 23rd: > > > > >You can try to > > >spin what are obviously shortcomings of the NHS as the fault of Thatcher > > > > Ant McWatt comments: > > > > I wouldn't call the analysis of relevant information and obtaining the > > complete picture of a particular scenario, spin. > > > > For instance, as we saw in the example you cited from the Independent > > newspaper concerning the death of Ms Christian from the privatisation of the > > UK's GP out-of-hours service (rather than a publicly owned service as you > > first thought), it was you who was spinning. Let's remind ourselves of what > > the coroner stated in this case: > > > > "The nurse [from the privatised Primecare out-of-hours service] had 'totally > > failed' to deal with the case. 'Had Ms Christian been seen by a doctor at > > this stage ... it is surely inevitable that she would have been admitted,' > > he said. Even at this stage it was likely her life would have been saved, he > > added." > > > > http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health_medical/article2444479.ece > > > > As I noted previously, when the GP out-of-hours service was publicly funded > > (as it was pre-Thatcher) it would have been a _doctor_ who would have > > usually spoken to or visited a patient such as Ms Christian. Whichever way > > _you_ care to spin it, it was the privatised nature of the out-of-hours > > service that ultimately resulted in this poor woman's death i.e. the > > _immoral_ cutting of costs for profits by using a nurse instead of a doctor > > to provide critical medical advice. > > This is a good example of what I meant by "spin." You omitted this paragraph > from the newspaper's account: > > "Christopher Dorries, coroner for South-West Yorkshire, criticised THE > HOSPITAL and > the GP deputising service Primecare, which he said were guilty of neglect." > (emphasis > added). > > You have deliberately tried to leave the impression that the nurse was > entirely at > fault for the woman's death. That's "spin." > > > Having finally found that Guardian article you cited yesterday, it therefore > > comes as no surprize that the following is stated about the privatisation of > > NHS services: > > > > > > Unison [the trade union representing NHS workers] has also scheduled a > > national demonstration against further privatisation and marketisation in > > the NHS on October 13. > > > > A government minister was barracked by Unison members yesterday as he tried > > to defend the government's policies on the NHS, including pay. > > > > Hilary Benn, the international development secretary and a deputy Labour > > leadership contender, was forced onto the back foot by delegates who accused > > the government of running a campaign to privatise the health service. > > > > The hostile reception is a foretaste of the rough ride health minister Andy > > Burnham is expected to receive over pay and healthcare reforms when he makes > > his address to the Unison conference on Tuesday. > > > > Platform speakers pointed to a series of reports which found that > > privatisation - such as independent treatment centres - were inefficient and > > wasteful. > > > > Delegate Martin Booth told the conference: "Whatever Mr Benn or any other > > government minister says, there are whole areas of the NHS in serious crisis > > because of this government's determination to privatise and marketise the > > NHS." > > > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2063562,00.html > > Does it come as a surprise to you that a union representing government workers > would be against any attempt to privatize the system that employs their > members? > Really, Ant, I'm surprised you would attempt to pass off what NHS employees > have to say about a threat to their jobs as unbiased and accurate. > > > That's a shortcoming on your part as they don't help your case. For > > instance, let's remind you of one phrase found in the above article: > > "Platform speakers pointed to a series of reports which found that > > privatisation - such as independent treatment centres - were inefficient and > > wasteful." > > Of course they did. What did you expect? You can find studies to support any > point of view, like the studies that support global warming and those that > don't, > for example. > > > >As for the rest, your anecdotal sob story [about the lack of proper medical > > >care for many people >living near the minimum wage level in the US] is > > >touching. > > > > > > A bit like Ms Christian's story, no doubt? > > Yes, but NHS was supposed to eliminate such stories, promising a healthy > outcome > for everyone free of charge. We make no such claim for our system, just the > best > care in the world. > > Warm regards, > Platt > > > ------------------------------------------------- > This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ > moq_discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
