David B and Group.
You wrote:
> Not sure how to respond to Bodvar without going off the topic. (I'd
> like to hear more about the realization you described.) Maybe a few
> thoughts genuinely connect to our Giant discussion...
Genuinely connected to the Giant discussion. I'll try. My misgivings
about the (social) giant was its biological aspect and once that was
"killed" I have nothing against such a vision of - for instance - a big
city. And yet I find it strange that such a monster and it's devouring
nature seems like a revelation to so many, after all suppressing
society has been the western culture for a long time now ..... while
we seem to be blind to the Q-intellect Giant.
I wrote about your message triggering a vision of intellect's giant, I
have always felt more oppressed by (my own) "reason" than by
other people or "society". The bigger the giant the better, if there
was a plan for global government I would be the first to sign :-). This
possibly says something about me, but we are discussing
philosophy not psychology ;-).
Before learning about the MOQ there was no way to "hit back",
reason was reality itself and intellectual suicide - choosing to
disregard reason - was not my way. So when reading ZAMM the
sentence about "giving the ghost of reason a good trashing" rang a
bell with me and started my Pirsig fascination. The preliminary
MOQ (of ZAMM) did not make it quite clear how reason could be
trashed and continue as a more 'reasonable' reason. Locked inside
the subject-object metaphysics there's no way to tone down
"reason". SOM IS REASON!
But the full-grown MOQ gave such an opening with intellect as one
static level that may be outgrown. ......well, here i go again.
> Freedom from the intellectual patterns is the ULITIMATE goal for an
> individual person. That's very much a part of what Mysticism is all
> about. But as an historical and evolutionary process, which is more of
> a collective thing and limited by averages and such. In that sense,
> the intellectual level just took charge yesterday and doesn't even yet
> have a firm grasp on things. What's more, the particular kind of
> intellecual patterns that have recently taken charge is loaded with
> flaws and gaps.
Yes, that is the goal and I look to the MOQ as a Western way to
enlightenment, but "mysticism" is forever tucked away in the
harmless "eastern retreat for those who cannot stand the light of
reason/cold scepsism of science". You are also right in stating that
intellect has just taken charge - in the sense of dominating our
outlook - but as a static value level it isn't that recent.
> I think that prison-like feeling is a symptom of SOM
> in particular, rather than the intellect in general. In other words,
> you may be ready for freedom from the intellect, but the world is
> very far away from that kind of transcendence.
You see SOM one intellectual pattern that may be replaced by
another intellectual pattern, for instance the MOQ? But doesn't
that make both MOQ and SOM - and whatever "metaphysics" we
may cook up - intellectual patterns ad infinitum? In the MOQ
intellect is merely a static level which is supposed to be
surpassable and how can there be an escape from such an
intellect? I call upon Magnus who often stressed that a
metaphysics is the first fundamental entity. The MOQ and the
SOM cannot occupy the same "volume".
> The social values that make cities and cultures and languages and
> religions and states and armies are not something different or other
> than us. We are the Giant.
With this I agree wholeheartedly!
The End.
Bo
MOQ.org - http://www.moq.org
