Hi MOQFs
I'm still not sure what we're talking about here, but;
As far as I understand Nature/Nurture or Free Will/Determinism are
just two realm-pairs we're discussing now.
Nature/Nurture: My immediate reaction was like Horse's; It's
obviously both, but it's not a question of if one of these is the
cause of ALL human behavior, it's just a division line.
What is interesting is if even individual behaviors can't be found to
be caused by Nauture OR Nurture, in which case the division looses
it's value.
But now I've moved this to a binary choice discussion I talked about
last month.
Are we really talking about how to "explain" cause in MoQ?
I Think so, so here's my insert to Bo's bit about the hot stove:
>Well, that is inorganic physics, about what constitutes our human
>reality I feel that the four levels must play a role. In the famous "hot
>stove" example Pirsig says that it is perception of value that makes
>the person jump in the air, anyone else would say it's the
>autonomous nerve system's reflexes which is true too. Perhaps
>what Pirsig means is that the inorganic patterns of excited atoms
>(heat) are perceived by the biological patterns as low value and
>takes immediate action, only later as the event has gone through
>the social level does the oaths and sheepish expression occurs,
>and after the intellect has evaluated the situation the
>"rationalization" of what happened occurs. And that this is what
>happens all the time and that our actions and outlook makes it up
>through the levels. Not all originating at the inorganic, some at the
>biological, the social or even only taking place at the intellect.
>
>
>Does this reintroduce causation in a MOQ guise?
I understand this as you wondering if the propagation up through the
levels is a form of "cause". Not so I say, and I don't think the 4
levels are fundamental enough to play a role apart from being static
patterns that can cause Quality Events. We have to go to the very
bowels of MoQ, that say that DQ creates subject and object:
* Neutral DQ "creates" a man sitting on a hot stove.
* Then Negativ SQ "creates" a man who's biology feels hot on a stove.
-> He jumps
* Then Negativ SQ "creates" a man who's social values experience
feeling and jumping
off a hot stove. -> He curses
* Then Neg/Pos SQ "creates" a man who's cursed/jumped/felt. -> He evaluates.
Time is the new thing we're talking here; value propagating up thru
the levels isn't any different from value elsewhere; it's still a new
situation, and as such must be looked at as a whole new "Quality
Event".
..........
Using the "DQ creates subject and object" statement always starts
boggling my mind, i.e everything (as SOM knows it) keeps getting
re-invented for each quality event; But I just though of an example
that helps me:
- You don't just disappear, because that would be trillions of very
negative quality events as every atom in your body disobeys the first
inorganic level's moral "laws" by disappearing.
-- Wow! I think that just gave me a causation-revelation as well; I
can see everything down to (and including) quantium level just
happening because it is a static high-quality thing to do!
Hope I'm barking up the right tree,
-tor
MOQ.org - http://www.moq.org
