Rick:
> And that part about Indian reservations being "hotbeds" of drug and
alcohol
> abuse (where do you live Glenn?) is patently absurd...
Glenn:
Read Cory's very thoughtful post. He thinks "hotbeds" is too strong, but
based
on his depictions it's close.
Rick:
> are you suggesting
> that Indians have high rates of drug and alcohol abuse because of the
> religious use of peyote???
Glenn:
Yes, but not entirely. Cory hits on other important reasons - to mask or
quiet
the inner rage caused by the white man's oppression, and obviously the
poverty.
But yes, I think not just the condoned but sanctioned use of a drug in the
mainstream ceremonies of a culture will have a similar effect on
recreational
use. And we can see it has branched out to other drugs, especially alcohol.
Cory:
It seems to me that the Native American Church is NOT a mainstream ceremony.
Rick:
> They've been doing it for thousands of years...
Glenn:
According to Lila, peyote was introduced from Mexico in the last century.
Cory:
I think you are both right. There is very little known about the use of
peyote before the early nineteenth century but it seems that the elaborate
ceremonies surrounding its use are thousands of years old. The Native
American Church was begun in an attempt to reconcile old ways with
Christianity, according to some accounts. This seems very likely to me as
well. The same thing happened in Europe when Christianity replaced pagan
ceremonies. The days of celebration were kept but the cultural meaning
behind them changed.
Christianity is a very mystical religion; plastic enough to allow for
differences while rigid in its adherence to the Good. While most think of
Christianity as being born with Jesus, its roots are far older, me thinks.
Rick:
> long before alcohol was introduced by the white man, long before our
> "narcotics" were introduced. One thing has NOTHING to do with the other.
Glenn:
You ought to be very sure of yourself before you make blanket statements
like
this. For some reason white man's fire-water is a big problem for American
Indians. Rates of alcoholism per capita among American Indians is much
higher
than in white America. There are even accounts of this abuse before they
were
put on reservations. Draw your own conclusions.
Cory:
First, we have to realize that Native Americans were/are a very diverse
peoples. To imply, as you seem to do, that all Native Americans have alcohol
problems is like implying all Germans are Nazis. Drive through some of the
inner cities in the U.S. and tell me why there are so many liquor stores and
advertisements for alcohol. Is the white man's fire-water also a problem for
blacks? Or maybe its just the white man who's a problem? No. This problem
runs much deeper than that and is very complex. It is perhaps most of all a
prolonged sense of hopelessness and this has nothing to do with poverty
directly.
When the old ways are reintroduced to the peoples, wonderous events occur.
Not so much materially but spiritually. A sense of hope returns; a sense of
belonging to something bigger than oneself. Only then can the crushing
burden of poverty be addressed. Poverty isn't about money alone. Didn't we
learn that during the 60s when LBJ threw billions of dollars at poverty to
no avail?
Rick:
> What you propose here is the stifling of David B's intellectual
statements
> in favor some moot social concern---- according to our own system, your
> methods are immoral (especially given the forum in which they are
> introduced).
Glenn:
I'm sure David B. is not going to let anyone stifle him.
You're right, what I said *is* immoral according to the MOQ if my statement
is a
social concern (moot or not) and David B's was intellectual. But you've got
it
the wrong way round. Not only is David B. espousing a popular claim of the
"drug
culture", a thriving low-quality social movement, but all he's really
talking
about is biological quality: a big, humungus, physical high. I keep reading
his
paragraph over and over and I don't see anything vaguely intellectual about
it.
*My* concern has no social strings attached. I do not wish to change any
laws
and I did not blind-carbon-copy my email to any elected official. I promise.
Mine was purely in the interest of the intellectual well-being of the
intellects
of this forum. I mean, I wouldn't want any important ideas to die along with
its
people. Gee Rick (Glennn says with tongue firmly planted in cheek), I don't
see
how you came to *your* conclusion. As I see it, I won not by one level but
two!
I wish people would start realizing this morality-through-the-levels stuff
is
pure disaster, especially when applied between the social and intellectual
levels.
Cory:
I think the biological-social-intellect conflict is very clear in this case.
We must look to intent when comtemplating drug use. There is a distinct
difference between the peyote ceremony Phaedrus attended and his meeting
Lila in a bar. The intent of the peyote ceremony is to open up the doors of
perception; a dynamic expansion of the static intellect. The intent of the
barroom is forgetfulness; a closing of the doors of perception and a regress
into biological patterns. Remember Phaedrus's foggy memory the morning
after.
It is human to mix these levels together. When we first encounter a mind
altering drug like LSD or peyote or magic mushrooms, our very first instinct
is to share that experience with others. There is no way to share
intellectually what is really experienced so we are forced to describe
biological experiences. I have tried and tried to write of my own
experiences but I can never get it right.
Glenn, you seem like a very caring person. If I have offended you I
apologize.
Cory
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
MOQ.org - http://www.moq.org
