October 1, 2005 I thank Jim Rohlf for his prompt and very interesting comment. He is correct, of course, that any MDS technique that relaxes the requirement of matching original distances must at the same time relax the identity of the resulting ordinations with PCOORD plots of the variables contributing to the original distances. It is a tribute to his longevity in our field that the primary paper he cites is dated 1972. At that time I was still a graduate student of social theory. It was years before I became a statistician, and in going back to pick up the literature I'd overlooked in a misspent youth I never encountered Rohlf's indeed quite pertinent paper before yesterday's post. But that dating of 1972 is also a useful cue for what is (I hope) a useful continuing comment. 1972 was long before the onset of useful shape coordinates -- indeed before the original Kendall publication of 1977 (that none of us saw for years) that set the Procrustes metric on the road to its multivariate implementation. Is it appropriate to apply a technique from 1972 to shape variables invented in the 1990's? What assumptions does the 1972 method make about the origins of the data to which it is being applied? Jim's comment would apply to _any_ multivariate sum of squares, arising from any vector-valued data matrix -- shape coordinates, measured distances, measured angles, log-distances. It does not even assume that the metric _is_ a sum of squares. Like the rest of the MDS family of ordinations, it can work (meaning: it can produce useful ordination plots) when applied to Manhattan metrics, string matching measures, perceived similarity from subjects in psychology experiments, whatever. But shape coordinates are not like that. They arise from an optimizing construction in the original Cartesian geometry of the image data, and relaxing the distance alters the conceptual context according to which that choice of distance itself came to be justified. Remember that the Procrustes family of techniques has two exactly equipotent purposes: sorting the organisms (the task we call ordination), but also ordinating the space of possible measurements (the space of "shape variables" dual to the coordinate space). The underlying beauty of the Procrustes toolkit is its reinterpretation of the original Kendall geometry in a multivariate context that makes this duality possible. Remember, too, that MDS itself arose originally in the social sciences, where the data to which it applied do not have any geometry of their own. There is no natural match between the two approaches to the meaning of "distances," which correspond to two completely different styles of statistical science. The relaxation of the distance metric that Jim published in 1972, as applied to Procrustes shape coordinates (or, for that matter, to the new size-shape coordinates), breaks the connection between those two purposes. While the result of a metric MDS on shape coordinates are interpretable as rotations of the Procrustes shape coordinates, the axes of a nonmetric MDS are not interpretable as shape variables at all. One arrives at an ordination, yes, wherein nearby specimens are more similar, are perhaps usefully clustered -- but the mathematical basis for the selection of the distance measure being _sent_ for MDS has been removed, and with it the possibility that the resulting coordinates have further formal properties independent of the name and the author of the computer program that generated them. It is not solely a matter of style or taste, then, but also a matter of fundamental scientific methodology, to ask: what is the impact upon ultimate scientific interpretation of this abandonment of the duality between specimens and variables that is woven into the foundation of the Procrustes techniques? The original question to which Jim and I both responded asked (among other things) about the correspondence of shape distance with geographical distance. The Procrustes method allows, among other things, the coordinates of a PCOORD plot to be correlated with latitude and longitude, for description of actual gradients or clines (the approach we call "singular warps"). But this separate optimization, the PLS analysis of map coordinates against shape coordinates, no longer is interpretable when the input shape representation is a nonmetric MDS output instead of an exact re-projection of the initial Procrustes metric geometry. It is no longer talking about explaining shape covariance; it is, in fact, no longer talking about "explaining" anything at all in the sense of "explanation" that we all borrow from the world of linear models. We have prior experience in a similar topic, the relation of the Procrustes coordinates to the resistant-fit version of superposition. Resistant fit produces occasionally interpretable diagrams (yes, Virginia, there really is a Pinocchio), but at considerable cost in the blocking of any subsequent multivariate analysis. It didn't matter in the original (1982) publications of the resistant-fit method, but it came to matter shortly afterwards, as the synthesis emerged of which I am speaking, in which shape coordinates serve two roles, not only one. By now, in 2005, I am not aware of any scientific uses of the resistant-fit methods -- the price is simply too high. In my view the road through nonmetric MDS is likewise a biometrical dead-end. If there is any further interpretation of the resulting diagrams, it is not via statistical properties conveyed by the actual plotted point locations. Those properties have been dissolved by the software. And it is in fact the same price: the breaking of the tie between the coordinates of the final diagrams and their interpretation as shape variables. Yes, the technique of nonmetric MDS, which does indeed downplay the weight of the most different shapes vis-a-vis those closer together, furthers one of the core purposes of numerical taxonomy, namely, cluster-based classification. This is at the cost of several other purposes for which no techniques existed in 1972 but that are now available _simultaneously_ in the Procrustes toolkit. Jim appropriately mentions ordination as one purpose that can be served even when the formal symmetries of the Procrustes approach are relaxed in this particular way. But he did not go on to indicate as well the costs of the practice he recommended, which is to say, the breaking of the formal geometric tie between object coordinates and measureable variables that gives the toolkit as a whole its power. Once this tie is broken, it can't be restored by any subsequent multivariate maneuver. In 1972, there was no such tie to worry about. The intervening third of a century has given us additional multivariate power that should not be set aside lightly. But then (my final comment) this is a strange place to start relinquishing the Procrustes approach. If you are willing to relax Procrustes distance against a general monotone function, why on earth are you using Procrustes distance in the first place? Why relax _that_ assumption, instead of the symmetry over landmarks and directions (the assumption of the offset isotropic Gaussian model) that is so more more obviously violated in realistic data sets? The Procrustes metric is "what we mean by shape distance" only if you accept the stringent symmetries that made Kendall's original insights feasible. If you are going to start altering assumptions, monotone transformations of a still totally symmetric formalism are a strange, I would say non-biological, place to begin. Better to consider the original landmark scheme itself (something that went unmentioned and of course unfigured in the original post to which we are both responding), and ask instead the kinds of questions for which we _do_ have answers within the perseverating Procrustes framework: questions about anisotropy of landmark variability, about landmarks vs. semilandmarks, and the other tools that are compatible with the original mathematics. The nonmetric MDS, which predates the whole Procrustes approach, has no handles by which to pick up these additional tools. I look forward to additional comments on this theme. Last year my Vienna group and I published a comment on the vicissitudes of morphometrics, arising in numerical taxonomy but now centered (at least in Europe) in physical anthropology, evolutionary biology and evo-devo. The innovation of which I'm speaking here might be intrinsic to this translation: the emergence of a duality between descriptors of specimens and descriptors of quantitative measures per se, a duality for which classic numerical taxonomy never seemed to have much use. This is not a criticism of the taxonomy itself, of course, only a comment on the corresponding limitations of subsequent quantitative scientific context.
Fred Bookstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Replies will be sent to the list. For more information visit http://www.morphometrics.org