Lisa and others,
   
  Thank you for sharing.  You brought up good questions and thoughts.  
   
  Yes, I have been extremely fortunate in having access to training.  I have 
attended 3 or 4 session with Smokey, spent 3 days with Ellin in Denver, and 
have attended a full day session on comprehension with the likes of Debbie, 
Tony, Ellin, etc...
   
  My training as a K-3 Reading Excellence coach with literature discussion 
groups did not use the role sheets (thank goodness!) but the discussions 
heavily revolved around a summary, connections, inferences, 
visualizations.....more about the strategies we were using while trying to tie 
it into how did it help you understand the story better.  My thoughts now are 
that perhaps these conversations were not where they needed to be...I'm 
wondering if it should have been more about the deeper meaning of the books. 
   
  This maybe due to the fact that I am now working with 4th-6th grade students 
and that I have read Teaching for Deeper Comprehension by Linda Dorn and Carla 
Soffos.  I am fortunate that I am in a district who subcontracts with them for 
monthly coach training.  Linda is very focused on chains of discourse whether 
it is among adults or with children.  They believe that a conversation is a 
language dance-a set of well-orchestrated moves that are regulated by the 
desire to c onstruct meaning...meaning is negotiated through the group 
interactions.  In this book, literature discussions are inquiry-driven with the 
teacher who may use, "Does anyone want to raise any questions about ___'s 
thinking here?" (clarification) or "Does anyone want to say something more 
about that?" (elaboration).  It is over time that children begin taking on the 
conversational moves (or use their own language) just as Vygotsky speaks of how 
children learn in a social context and then internalize the
 learning and use it as a tool for their own thinking.  In Linda's and Carla's 
book, they say that literature discussion consist of seven components.  First, 
of course the introduction and selection of the book with ownership and choice 
by students.  Children have been talk how to prepare for lit. groups and 
understand the guidelines for engagin in them...anchor charts are used to 
reinfoce independent learning.  The second component is silent reading of the 
text by individuals....I can still see buddies though if one needs more support 
in persisting, etc... I do believe this is much better than teachers who have 
their groups read one page...I often wonder if they really concentrate by 
listening to others read/read with or if they are a few pages ahead like in 
round robin reading.  The third component is teacher conferencing.  This is a 
component that I unfortunately have left out due to the need to pull guided 
reading groups and literature groups.  Here, she suggests
 meeting with students in short conferences before  the actual lit. group.  She 
is suggesting meeting with approximately 8 students daily...and yes I'm 
thinking this would take the place of a group in a schedule because I'm 
thinking we have to have time for math/science/social studies in upper grades.  
Here, the teacher might ask, "How did the story make you feel?" Has anything 
similar to this ever happend to you?"  "What does the author mean here?"  ""How 
does the author use words to help us see what he is describing?"  and "What is 
the theme of the story?"  "What do you think the main character learnered?"  In 
conferences she prompts her students in three areas...response to story, 
questioning the author, and assessing comprehension.  Kids also use reading 
logs to track their thinking and to make reflections of their reading.  The 
fourth component is the actual lit dicussion.  Here, the teacher provides 
different levels of support as children take on responsiblity for
 talk around books.  She is sensitive to how the children are responding to one 
another and prompts them to build discourse chains within the group as I spoke 
about above.  The goal here is for students to develop analytical and 
reflective strategies for comprehending. Conversations could sound like the 
examples they give with students discussing The Story of Ruby Bridges on p.88 
of their book TDC:
   
  Taylor:  I agree with you, Marcus.  I think she opened the door for black 
kids to go to school with white kids so they could get a better education.
  Teal:  Yeah, the white kids went to the best schools.
  David:  Why do you think that, Teal?
  Teal:  Well, on the page where they are in court the author says, " The black 
children were not able to receive the same education as the white children.  It 
wasn't fair.  And it was against the nation's law.
  alexius: But, Ruby kept going and that changed our schools.  I love her for 
that.
  Matthew:  I was wondering why the whites were so mean and did not want her to 
go to their school.
   
  The fifth component is a peer discussions where kids continue to talk without 
the teacher or the teacher may come in towards the end.  The sixth component is 
text mapping and focus groups where kids with their teacher focus on author's 
style...leads/ending, voice or text features...setting, episodes, time, 
character analysis.  The seventh component is literature extensions where kids 
continue talk with peers around the book, read another book by the same author, 
write a letter to the author, create timelines of events, etc...
   
  With all that said...I'm reflecting on the dialogue of the above 
conversation....I'm not noticing here in their dialogue kids sharing how they 
used strategies...I believe that they have moved to a deeper level and are 
discussing the output of the strategies...the deeper meaning.  Yes, you could 
look through their dialogue and infer which strategy use produced their 
comments/levels of thinking...and that these discuss are truly focused on 
learning through a group understanding.  
   
  In my own work with 6th graders I assessed that the students were really just 
throwing out whatever they found interesting or just sharing strategies but 
their conversations were disjointed and did not serve the group as a whole.  
Also, their conversations were at more of a literal level with some 
inferential/evaluative thoughts.  
   
  As I continued to read: 
  www.ncela.gwu.edu/pubs/ncrcdsll/epr2 
http://www.ncela.gwu.edu/pubs/ncrcdsll/epr4.htm
   
  Then, I combined their criteria for instructional conversations and tried to 
embed it with Dorn and Soffo's literature discussions.
   
  What I found was that as I became self-regulated with the use of the Dorn and 
Soffos Supporting Text Talk Prompts p.87 of Teaching for Deeper Comprehension 
and the Instructional Conversation Scale, my students moved from just sharing 
disjointed surface level thinking and moved to deeper levels of inferential and 
evaluative levels of connected thoughts of the big ideas within text.  (I 
started videotaping myself and rating my conversation moves/students moves or 
behavior to the Dorn and Soffos Text Talk and raating myself using the IC 
scale.  Talk about a learning events!!!!)
   
  Anyway, I'm just questioning myself...and pondering how the strategies might 
have been my focus for a number of years...and one could say it was because I 
was teaching them to K-3 students and that in 4th-6th they move deeper....but I 
am thinking that even in the lower grades my book discussions could have moved 
to deeper levels than disjointed  conversations and strategy use with ...since 
in reality the focus of the book discussion should have been the book's meaning.
   
  Am I going nuts?!  Could someone help me consolidate my thinking?  I'd love 
to hear if anyone's thinking has shifted in the use of comprehension 
strategies/book discussions.  How do your discussion sound in your classrooms?  
   
  If anyone wants an instructional conversation rating scale on a one page 
form...let me know.  I've got one. 
   
  Thanks for listening and for your future thoughts on this topic.
   
    Teresa T.

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