I always think when we reread pieces, and themes/author's purposes/our purposes seem different: "You never step in the same river twice!"
On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 9:31 AM, Margy Hillman <[email protected]>wrote: > I so agree! I love "mucking about." Which is just what we are doing when we > try to guess what an author's purpose is/was. It's an unknowable. And to > some extent -- while it's interesting to discuss as an unknowable -- it has > little to do with our reading of a poem, story, play, or book. This has more > to do with the words, our experiences, and the connections we make and > continue to make as the literary piece continues to live through us (or > not). > > --- On Sun, 11/8/09, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > > From: [email protected] <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Theme/author's message > To: "Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group" < > [email protected]> > Date: Sunday, November 8, 2009, 5:55 PM > > Lovely, Bev, just lovely! Thanks for saying it ever so much better than I > did. > Judy > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Beverlee Paul" <[email protected]> > To: "Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group" < > [email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2009 4:37:06 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Theme/author's message > > In my opinion, this is a PERFECT example of what's wrong with some current > educational movements, especially the extre,e standards, objective, and RTI > movements right now. We used to have scholars such as Jerry Harste who > simply refused to "make easy" what is actually hard and trying to pin > things > down with ease distorted what was actually being said and what could be > said. I've always liked his phrase "mucking around" when I think of > inquiry. Also related to this line of thinking is the "uncertainty > principle". Our profession has become (through forces not always within our > control) adept at Naming Things. We want to come to an easy answer quickly > and "come to consensus." We are becoming intolerant of messy thinking, > reflection, and things that just take time. I wish we could have a little > dose of Piaget right now. If only he could come back, look and listen, and > try to pin things down without destroying them, I'd love to see it. I don't > think he'd be proud of us. Even though assimilate and accommodate do name > thinking, it's not narrowed. For evidence of that, see how difficult it is > for people to do other than recite a definition. It's so hard to help > college students understand these terms and many never do. Even the ones > that do seem to need high-level review if they are away from thinking about > them a bit. > > Not everything can be skewered and mounted in a "butterfly" collection of > terms such as author's purpose and theme. Thank God, I say. And this is > precisely why I read this list. I have others to help me understand > without "compliance." Most people who post on this list have become > tolerant of the lack of easy and SIMPLE answers and are willing to struggle > with a meaning invented and used by them. (even though I suppose > there really isn't anything new under the sun.) > > Now, I have to happily unmuddy the waters a bit.--or muddy them, depending > on your point of view, I guess. What was Ellin Keene's purpose for writing > To Understand? If we can articulate that, we are a long ways along the road > of understanding understanding. And I'm sure there are some who have put > the book aside because it is neither easy nor quick to comprehend and > apply. What it is, is a brilliant articulation of putting theory into > practice in the complicated, messy, challenging, and thrilling real world. > Her "multiple choices items" on tests don't have A-D. They go much farther > than that. Or possibly her multiple choice answers are A, B, C, D (all of > the above), or E (some of the above, but we're still figuring out which), > or > F(not all of the above, but it will take more work to figure out which). > > And what happens to the teachers who are okay with, and challenged by, > discussions to help each other develop deep understanding -- when they're > forced to "teach" some programs, many of which remind me of Catechism > questions and answers, or the chanting of the beautiful, ancient rituals in > some churches (which at least helps us . Memorizing that E=MC squared > doesn't get us much further toward understanding. I really do wish Piaget > were here. My limited understanding of him would say that we in American > education today have been forced to articulate thinking in such a narrow > way > that it's been rendered nearly useless. > > But, you know, I'm not blaming us. It's been done to us. Maybe. Ellin > wouldn't have struggled to understand understanding ("Ya'all say that, but > you never say what that means...") if she had given up on us all. She > believes we can do it. And believe me, I do know firsthand what it can cost > us as teachers. But if we don't do it, think what it costs our students. > > Hmmmm. Extended thinking to follow. > Bev P. > > > > On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:12 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > And I'll muddy the waters further. I tell my students that these are > terms > > readers have invented to make it easier to think about and discuss > > literature. I doubt you'll find a talented writer who decides on message > > and/or theme as organizational tools. I recently heard John Irving > explain > > how story invents itself. I've heard that Barbara Kingsolver has a sign > > above her monitor reminding her "Don't preach." I think we need to be > > careful about superimposing structure on creative work. I like the > previous > > comment (was it Lori?) about making meaning for ourselves as individual > > readers. IMHO, we teach kids these terms not because there is one correct > > answer, but to help them delve into text, to think about their reading, > and > > to discuss it with meaning. > > JMO, > > Judy > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: [email protected] > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2009 10:31:30 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > > Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Theme/author's message > > > > > > Maura > > Now I will muddy the waters a bit...our district says the author's > purpose > > is one of three things...she writes to inform, to entertain or to > > persuade. Authors message and theme are used interchangeably. > > Jennifer > > In a message dated 11/8/2009 1:02:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > > [email protected] writes: > > > > This inquiry was perfectly timed for me. Next week we will be focusing on > > the author's purpose and then finishing up the book and learning about > > theme. I am interested on hearing what others think about these topics! > > Maura > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Mosaic mailing list > > [email protected] > > To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to > > http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. > > > > Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Mosaic mailing list > > [email protected] > > To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to > > http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. > > > > Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. > > > > > > > -- > "There is nothing so unequal as equal treatment of unequals." Chief > Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes > _______________________________________________ > Mosaic mailing list > [email protected] > To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to > http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. > > Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. > > _______________________________________________ > Mosaic mailing list > [email protected] > To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to > http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. > > Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. > > _______________________________________________ > Mosaic mailing list > [email protected] > To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to > http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. > > Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. > > -- "There is nothing so unequal as equal treatment of unequals." Chief Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes _______________________________________________ Mosaic mailing list [email protected] To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
