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Today's Topics:
1. Re: [Motion-devel] Motion Project (Kenneth Lavrsen)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 11:13:17 +0200
From: Kenneth Lavrsen <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Motion-user] [Motion-devel] Motion Project
To: Motion SVN commit messages <[email protected]>,
[email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I am on IRC in #motion on Freenode if anyone wants to ping me live. It is a ZNC
server that represents me so I can access from any computer or mobile. So if I
do not reply I will see a replay of the logs when I join from e.g. my iPad.
By the way. I can really recommend running a znc daemon on a home server if you
hang around irc. Brilliant tool. A daemon that runs in the background and it
connects to IRC and you connect to it with your IRC clients from whatever
device. And it plays the logs for you as if you had been connected all the
time. Briliant software. Open source naturally.
Kenneth
> On 07 Aug 2016, at 09:54, Joseph Heenan <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Great! So tosiara, MrDave, you should have invites in your email to join the
> github organisation.
>
> I can?t obviously find Joerg?s github username; if anyone knows it one of us
> can add him.
>
> MrDave - button to transfer the repo should be at the bottom of
> https://github.com/Mr-Dave/motion/settings
>
> Thanks
>
> Joseph
>
>> On 7 Aug 2016, at 07:11, tosiara <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> MrDave,
>> You forked from sackmotion repo and that was already a mirror of SVN. So you
>> are good to just move your repo into new organization, all the history will
>> remain
>>
>>
>>> On Aug 7, 2016 04:03, "Mr Dave" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Good snag on the name. Lets go with it. That was what I was searching for
>>> last night as well.
>>>
>>> For the code base, I don't want to do just a transfer of my repo over
>>> without thinking it through. We need make sure that history from the SVN
>>> gets to the new repo and validate that what was in the sack repo accurately
>>> reflects the commits in SVN. The SVN trunk matches the fork point for my
>>> repo but I don't know about the history.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>> On 8/6/2016 3:45 AM, Joseph Heenan wrote:
>>>> Hi Kenneth, Mr-Dave & all,
>>>>
>>>> I like this plan a lot.
>>>>
>>>> Is there anything else that needs to happen before we go ahead with this
>>>> plan?
>>>>
>>>> If not I would really love to get started :-)
>>>>
>>>> If everyone agrees, I would suggest the first step is to create what
>>>> github terms an ?organisation? (a fancy term for ?an area multiple people
>>>> can admin? - ie. is not tied to a single user account). Mr-Dave?s repo
>>>> could then be transferred to that organisation. Then we can start updating
>>>> the foswiki to point to the right places on that new organisation. We can
>>>> also contact the github staff to get them to mark that repo as the ?main
>>>> upstream? (it currently shows as a fork of sackmotion, which could be
>>>> confusing when new people look at it.)
>>>>
>>>> A few of the obvious names for the organisation are already taken; I?ve
>>>> come up with https://github.com/Motion-Project/ - if this is okay with
>>>> everyone I?ll add MrDave, Joerg Weber, Tosiara as admins.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> Joseph
>>>>
>>>>> On 6 Aug 2016, at 10:07, Kenneth Lavrsen <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> My suggestion is to move everything to Github
>>>>> Except the Motion Guide
>>>>>
>>>>> Foswiki is not a normal wiki. It is one of the few wikis that support
>>>>> structured data.
>>>>> If you move to a normal type writer wiki all you can do it edit a few
>>>>> long documents. It is the ability to handle structured data like it was
>>>>> in a database that is the killer application of Foswiki.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you agree to keep the Motion Guide on the Foswiki, then I will clean
>>>>> it out, and bring it up to date. The current Motion site is from 2005 or
>>>>> so when it ran on TWiki.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since then a lot of new features went into Foswiki which enables a
>>>>> simpler and easier to understand query syntax for SEARCH and there is
>>>>> also a feature where you can edit all the records at once in a nice table
>>>>> format instead having to jump around.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are also new features that enable special view modes for pages with
>>>>> dataforms. By aplying that once and for all, the hundreds of config
>>>>> options will no longer have the hidden garbage in front of the
>>>>> description. It will just be the description and the data fields.
>>>>>
>>>>> For all the old stuff on the Motion wiki I will simply link over to
>>>>> Github.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kenneth
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 06 Aug 2016, at 10:51, tosiara <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Are we planning to keep Foswiki on a separate web server or migrate
>>>>>> completely to Github and use it's wiki?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 5:47 AM, Mr Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>> I would agree that having this sort of experience would be great. For
>>>>>>> full disclosure, I'll note that I am not a full time programmer and C
>>>>>>> is not my usual programming language. I'm a business mathematician who
>>>>>>> happens to have also coded many projects over the last 30 years.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> MrDave
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 8/5/2016 1:59 PM, Kenneth Lavrsen wrote:
>>>>>>>> Joseph
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Motion is pure C so you have what it takes to contribute
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The wiki.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let me post a new mail thread on the wiki where I explain how the
>>>>>>>> guide works
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> never mind the rest of the wiki. Just the documentation part
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kenneth
>>>>>>>>> On 05-Aug-16 21:39, Joseph Heenan wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi Kenneth,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I?m also offering to help where I can, though I have nowhere near the
>>>>>>>>> experience with motion that the other members you mention have. I do
>>>>>>>>> have close to 20 years experience of working on/leading very large C
>>>>>>>>> projects though.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I do not yet understand how the documentation process works.
>>>>>>>>> Particularly I don?t see where a new man page is generated from the
>>>>>>>>> wiki.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is there some documentation somewhere on the general process of
>>>>>>>>> updating the documentation that
>>>>>>>>> you can point us at? Or can you give the list a quick primer please?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Joseph
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 5 Aug 2016, at 19:52, Kenneth Lavrsen <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tosiara
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I do not understand your sharp tone.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have agreed to pass over the project.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And I wrote below I am OK that bug reports etc are moving to Github.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But you also have to be honest here
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You guys have added several new options and new values to existing
>>>>>>>>>> options. And none of you could be bothered to update the
>>>>>>>>>> documentation. I just read 2-3 questions on this mailing list that
>>>>>>>>>> relates to options that are not documented.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It takes days to code a new feature and test it. It takes 10 minutes
>>>>>>>>>> to document it. I can for the world not understand why programmers
>>>>>>>>>> in general do not understand the importance of documenting how it
>>>>>>>>>> works.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bugs report, feature requests will be removed from the wiki. Patches
>>>>>>>>>> work so much better with pull requests on git. I will remove all
>>>>>>>>>> this also.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It is the Motion Guide that I will like see online and up to date. I
>>>>>>>>>> will be happy to bring it up to date provided that you tell me how
>>>>>>>>>> the new things work.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Last time I tried to build Motion I found several features that I do
>>>>>>>>>> not know how to use!!!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tell me how it works and I will update the docus. And I also commit
>>>>>>>>>> to remove all the abandonned features on the wiki. I do not have
>>>>>>>>>> time to code and develop Motion but As I said I am OK to keep the
>>>>>>>>>> wiki running and the Motion Guide working. But I need you guys to
>>>>>>>>>> commit (gentlemens agreement) that you will keep the documentation
>>>>>>>>>> up to date (with my help with the practical stuff) and also make
>>>>>>>>>> sure the man pages and the html version of the Motion guide up to
>>>>>>>>>> date. As I said it is easy. When the wiki docu is up to date it will
>>>>>>>>>> autogenerate the html and manpage.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You guys focus on the code and supporting the users. I keep the wiki
>>>>>>>>>> alive and update the docu which is probably 20-30 minutes work per
>>>>>>>>>> year. I use the wiki for other things so keeping it alive is not an
>>>>>>>>>> issue. And if you guys feed me when you add new features or edit the
>>>>>>>>>> existing pages when you change the existing options then it is not a
>>>>>>>>>> problem for me. And when I hand over the project I also hand over
>>>>>>>>>> all decisions on what is changed. I just become the project
>>>>>>>>>> secretary and wiki admin.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So MrDave, Joerg Weber, Tosiara. Are you game to become the official
>>>>>>>>>> new Motion team with MrDave as the new formal owner?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And anyone else wanting to commit to help along?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Kenneth
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 05 Aug 2016, at 09:48, tosiara <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Kenneth,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Let's be honest, SVN version is dead. Poor RTSP support, configure
>>>>>>>>>>> and build issues, deprecated ffmpeg functions and lots of bugs
>>>>>>>>>>> (including security issues with buffer overflow which can allow
>>>>>>>>>>> remote code execution). A lot of people already switched to
>>>>>>>>>>> MrDave's fork and all of them seem to be happy with existing
>>>>>>>>>>> documentation.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Fowsiki contains a lot of info, right. But it is still quite
>>>>>>>>>>> outdated and nobody maintains it. For example, how many support
>>>>>>>>>>> requests have been resolved recently? Check it out:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.lavrsen.dk/foswiki/bin/view/Motion/SupportRequests I
>>>>>>>>>>> tried to do my best to provide users support through Foswiki, but
>>>>>>>>>>> the nature of wiki engine is so, that users never get notifications
>>>>>>>>>>> about answers and don't provide further details. No bug tracking at
>>>>>>>>>>> all. Patch submission is so hard, that nobody uses that. How many
>>>>>>>>>>> patches have been received and merged for the past few years? Zero.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Just take a look how the life goes on at github:
>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/Mr-Dave/motion/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aclosed
>>>>>>>>>>> People submit patches and their changes get merged into master
>>>>>>>>>>> branch. Not as fast as it could be (as only MrDave maintains the
>>>>>>>>>>> repo), but at least they exist. You can see on the fork map how
>>>>>>>>>>> many people are keeping coding and even updating README:
>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/Mr-Dave/motion/network
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This motion version is alive and is evolving.
>>>>>>>>>>> All we need is to give it the official status so all the distros
>>>>>>>>>>> pulls this new version, because it is de facto "real" motion.
>>>>>>>>>>> Everyone will benefit
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 5:49 AM, Kenneth Lavrsen
>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Resent to the right mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mr Dave
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am happy to to see the project handed over to someone that will
>>>>>>>>>>>> give it tender love and care. I had hoped to get time for it again
>>>>>>>>>>>> but I have to recognize that I do not even have time to read this
>>>>>>>>>>>> mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I can see from this thread that there is a team willing to take
>>>>>>>>>>>> over and that is good.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The only concern I have is documentation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> When I joined the Motion project, it was wonderful code with no
>>>>>>>>>>>> documentation at all. And very few users because noone had a clue
>>>>>>>>>>>> how to use the code.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I changed that and wrote the Motion Guide. It changed the project
>>>>>>>>>>>> completely. A year later the project was given to another coder
>>>>>>>>>>>> while I maintained the documentation. And finally I took over the
>>>>>>>>>>>> project but I was never the main coder.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I created this mailing list. I moved the project on to Twiki and
>>>>>>>>>>>> later to Foswiki which I participated in very actively.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To pass on the project is easy. To find people willing to do the
>>>>>>>>>>>> work is the difficult part.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The team that takes over need to do more than just code. You need
>>>>>>>>>>>> to keep a project like Motion fully documented. A config file
>>>>>>>>>>>> based program does not explain itself the way a GUI program does.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The config file itself is not enough.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I would like some commitment that you guys will not just code and
>>>>>>>>>>>> code and code but also ensure that Motion is still a well
>>>>>>>>>>>> documented project.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Moving the code to Git. Moving the bug reporting away from the
>>>>>>>>>>>> current wiki. Fine! Feature requests etc etc. No worries.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I will be happy to continue running the server and the Foswiki.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The Motion Guide part of the wiki is actually very smart and it
>>>>>>>>>>>> requires very little work to maintain the documentation if you
>>>>>>>>>>>> invest an hour learning how it works. The documentation builds
>>>>>>>>>>>> itself. It will even build the manpage for you. All it requires is
>>>>>>>>>>>> maintaining one simple "database" record on the wiki per config
>>>>>>>>>>>> parameter. And it is a good idea that it is not the coders that
>>>>>>>>>>>> maintain this as long as they pass on the information.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is hard to run a project on your own. It needs a leader that
>>>>>>>>>>>> can take the final decisions and formally owns it. I am no longer
>>>>>>>>>>>> the right person for that, because of lack of time. I am OK to
>>>>>>>>>>>> pass on the ownership. But it would be nice if I knew that there
>>>>>>>>>>>> are 3-4 of you willing to help. And I am deeply concerned about
>>>>>>>>>>>> the project falling back to undocumented geek mode where only C
>>>>>>>>>>>> programmers that can read the code can use the software. That
>>>>>>>>>>>> would be very
>>>>>>>>>>>> sad.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I will make an effort on reading the mailing list the next days
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Kenneth
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> > On 05 Aug 2016, at 02:29, Mr Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>> > Kenneth,
>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>> > I believe it is a best practice to formally ask you to take over
>>>>>>>>>>>> > the Motion project before I officially move to create a new
>>>>>>>>>>>> > project. Please let me know either way of your decision. If you
>>>>>>>>>>>> > are uncomfortable passing it to me, would you consider putting
>>>>>>>>>>>> > it up for adoption to someone else that would be able to
>>>>>>>>>>>> > maintain it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>> > MrDave
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Motion-devel mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/motion-devel
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Motion-user mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/motion-user
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.lavrsen.dk/twiki/bin/view/Motion/WebHome
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Motion-devel mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/motion-devel
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>> Motion-devel mailing list
>>>>>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/motion-devel
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
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