David Tenser wrote:
> One thing that I've always thought of as a very simple, yet very useful 
> feature that Mozilla lacks: The ability to add/remove buttons to the 
> toolbar(s) and to drag/move toolbars, address fields, menus, etc.
> 

Oh my God, I never noticed that Mozilla didn't even have 
dockable/moveable toolbars!  Holy Christ.

> Even simple crappy Wordpad has this functionality (at least moving 
> toolbars),

Simple, crappy Wordpad is also able to edit plain text relatively 
easily, unlike Mozilla's "composer".  Do you know that until about a 
month ago, Mozilla's email/news editor didn't even have a *context 
menu*?!  I shittest thou not.

> and freebie Outlook Express can do anything with the toolbar, 
> but Mozilla simply can't. You can add/remove some standard buttons like 
> Search, but you can't even turn of captions on buttons, like you could 
> in ancient Netscape 4.x
> 

David, we're just never going to see this in Mozilla.  And actually I'm 
not sure we should want to; hell, AOL can't even get the *simple* and 
*critical* stuff to work!  I'd rather they waste time getting those 
wrong than waste time getting the "nice-to-have"s wrong!

> With an open source project involving hundreds of developers over a 
> several-year time span, you would expect a very customizable program 
> with lots of design/appearance preferences, but Mozilla is in fact very 
> hard to customize... Ok, you can change skin, but that's about it.
> 

Expect this reply to that from the AOL staff and the Mozillapologists:

"Oh no, Mozilla is extremely customizable, and it's easy!  Just write a 
few hundred lines of Javascript...."

I'm not sure how the rest of it goes, since my eyes glaze over at that 
point and I go use something else that has a checkbox to do the exact 
same thing ten times better.

> I admit that it's not the most important feature in a program, but the 
> truth is that none of my friends usually stick with the default 
> appearance of any program. Personally, I always remove the captions on 
> toolbar buttons, I use smaller buttons, etc. In Mozilla, you can either 
> display the toolbar, or not.
> 

Any color as long as it's black.  BUT YOU CAN USE ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT 
SKINS!

Oh, well, not really, something like a grand total of SIX at last count, 
if you search really hard and don't mind a lot of stuff not working. 
But that XUL was sure worth it!  Pfhht.

> Actually, the more I (try to) use Mozilla as my everyday browser and 
> mail client, the more I'm starting to realize that Mozilla isn't as 
> carefully planned as I thought it would be.

Mozilla wasn't planned *at all*.  Hell, they started out by trying to 
update 4.7x, and then after a year/year-and-a-half scrapped all that 
work and started over!

> By just reading the fact 
> that there are _many_ developers involved in a project that has been 
> going on for several years, you simply assume that this program is very 
> outlined and is aiming to be the best alternative out there. At least I 
> did. But appearantly I seem to be wrong,

You could not be *more* wrong in fact.  I was in the *exact* same spot 
as you are a few years back, when I started to look seriously at 
Mozilla.  There is *no* outline.  No direction.  No intention for 
Mozilla to be the best at anything.  In fact, the only things that can 
be said about Mozilla's goals are this:

1.  "Cross-platform", which translates into "If we need to make it ten 
times worse on Windows (99%+ of the target users) so that it will run on 
some oddball OS that nobody ever heard of (BeOS, 0.0000001% of target 
users), we'll do it".
2.  "Standards-compliant", which translates, "Standards-compliant web 
browser, when it's convenient for AOL".

> because the only thing they 
> seem to be doing is ignoring suggestions like this one, and fixing 
> trillions of bugs.
>

Well, and adding more bugs, according to the stratospheric bug count 
numbers in bugzilla.

> Is it someone in this newsgroup that agrees with me, or am I just being 
> very negative at the moment?
>

You are 100% dead-on brother.

> I'm going to be positive too: Mozilla _is_ very standards compliant.

When it wants to be.  Look back a few weeks into the discussions about 
"favicon".

> I 
> was editing my homepage the other day and I followed the book in CSS 
> formatting, and it actually worked without a problem in Mozilla, but IE6 
> couldn't display it properly! :) On that point, Mozilla is superior, and 
> something tells me that this (Gecko) is their main focus. Not the UI.
>

I think you're missing a key piece of the puzzle in your understanding 
of the Tacoma Narrows Browser Project here: The UI is written in 
something called "XUL".  Basically Mozilla's UI is a glorified webpage 
*itself*, and is rendered by that same engine.  Slowly.  Poorly. 
Resulting in the vast majority of the problems people have with Mozilla.

> I can just imagine the Gecko engine inside a Microsoft designed UI.
> 

You don't have to imagine, it's called "K-Meleon".  It proves that 
Mozilla's "XUL" notion is completely out-of-whack.

> / David
> 



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