David,
I will make a response to your comments and then let the issue lie where it may. I do
this mostly because I don't have the time for a knock-down, drag-out fight.
In phrasing yourself as, "With more non-park cops...", there was clearly the
insinuation that you were putting cops/police as one entire class of people; this was
certainly the impression I received. It seems that saying, "With more non-park
cops...", is similar to saying, "with more blacks in the neighborhood...". (or pick
your own derogatory classification) I don't agree with either of those statements
exactly because there is the impression that one is putting all of one group together.
I would maintain that I would not be the only person on the face of this planet that
would draw the same conclusion from your statements that I did.
In any case, I will state that if it was truly not your intent to say that all police
officers are the same and that there are indeed police officers who will strive to be
the defenders of justice and the law, then I stand corrected. However, I hope that
you realize that your comments and the way you phrased them could potentially give the
impression that you WERE classifying all police officers as thugs. And, again,
calling all police thugs will not give them any reason to even consider talking with
the community.
Gary Bowman
Ward 1- Audubon Park
On Tue, 30 January 2001, David Shove wrote:
>
> Mr Bowman
>
> You grossly (to put it mildly) misrepresent my comments, then proceed to
> knock down the straw man you have constructed.
>
> Principally, at no point did I say ALL police. I defy you to find it. You
> make it up, then slam me -- and most importantly my points -- as if you
> were the fair one and I the biassed unjust one.
>
> What I said was, more police, more brutality. If even some of the extra
> are brutal, that's true.
>
> But most importantly, it is NOT a question of INDIVIDUAL police - it is a
> question of POLICY.
>
> Policy set by the Police Dept, policy set by Mayor Sharon SAyles Belton,
> policy demanded by the ISAG corporations and the profiteers of Hwy 55,
> etc. The main blame belongs AT THE TOP -- by our so-called leaders and the
> over-rich families and corporations that CONTROL them. More police means
> more goon squads to enforce the will of the rich on all the rest of us.
> The main finger I point is at the rich masters of Mpls & MN, and their
> governmental puppets (eg Belton).
>
> The individual police will do pretty much what they think policy is -- and
> most of them KNOW it is to guard the rich and their assets against the
> non-rich, and to aid the rich in grabbing everything they can from the
> non-rich (that's us).
>
> So let's talk about Olson & Belton and ESPECIALLY the elite families that
> mastermind the policies and the police-state-ization of our society.
>
> You don't get 800 UNBADGED cops showing up for an action at 3am in the
> morning without massive direction from Belton & Co, as happened re Hwy
> 55. Ditto their $1 million dollar "defense" of ISAG corporations.
>
> POLICY. POLICY. POLICY. Top down. From Olson. From Belton. From elite
> profiteering families. POLICY.
>
> More cops nationally. More heavy police armor in all major cities. Many
> more jails. The rich are finding more places (jails) to put their enemies,
> and finding more puppets (cops) to put them there. A growing police state
> is just what the rich are ordering up for all the rest of us.
>
> For a lot more on this, see Lockdown America: police and prisons in the
> age of crisis, by Christian Parenti, Verso Press, 1999, paper 2000.
>
> I have come to feel SAFER when there are FEWER police. I support CUTTING
> BACK their number by a sizable amount, and taking away their pepper gas
> and rubber bullets and tank-like vehicles etc.
>
> --David Shove
>
>
>
> On 29 Jan 2001, Gary
> Bowman wrote:
>
> I am going to offer a much more serious response to David's post, even if
> Carol Becker offered a much more clever one.
>
> [Hers was clever? It was totally inaccurate - she speaks of park police
> finding me, when the whole point of my post had to do with their
> disappearance into the Mpls police.]
>
> Even if Carol hadn't brought forth her point that finding David is
> unlikely, it must be stated that David's comments and stereotyping of ALL
> police officers is unfair. I am not defending the actions of those
> officers who choose to act in illegal manners. Those individual police
> officers who engage in police brutality should be held accountable.
> However, to say that all police officers WILL act in a certain manner and
> not act in the manner of rightfully upholding the law is as improper as
> saying all African Americans are thieves or all Native Americans are
> drunkards. If one is going to call someone to task for stereotyping or
> "profiling" (and I would expect that David Shove may do this, looking at
> some of his posts), then one needs to practice what they preach.
>
> Finally, calling all police officers thugs does nothing towards furthering
> any hopeful dialogue with communities and Chief Olson.
>
> > Gary Bowman
> > Ward 1-Audubon Park
> >
> > On Mon, 29 January 2001, "Carol Becker" wrote:
> >
> > > Given there are about 35 sworn park police officers trying to patrol over
> >
> > > 170 separate park properties scattered throughout the over 50 square miles
> >
> > > of city, some of which are detectives and not on patrol, 24 hours a day, 7
> >
> > > days a week, I would doubt the park police could ever find you.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Carol Becker
> >
> > > Longfellow
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > > From: David Shove <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > > To: Dean Zimmermann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > > Cc: Mpls list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > > Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 12:30 AM
> >
> > > Subject: Re: [Mpls] Park Board
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > > On Sun, 28 Jan 2001, Dean Zimmermann wrote:
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > The business you have been reading about lately about the Park Board
> >
> > > sounds
> >
> > > > > a bit more titillating than it really is. Actually on most things the
> >
> > > Park
> >
> > > > > Board has almost universal agreement and when there is a divided vote,
> >
> > > the
> >
> > > > > majority/minority split is always configured differently. There are
> >
> > > some on
> >
> > > > > the Board now who feel the current leadership, President Solomon and VP
> >
> > > Fine
> >
> > > > > tend to cut off debate at meetings and to bring some items to the board
> >
> > > so
> >
> > > > > late in the process that they are done deals before some commissioners
> >
> > > know
> >
> > > > > they are happening. In particular, it seems that the leadership has
> >
> > > been
> >
> > > > > negotiating with the city to give away some of the Park Board's police
> >
> > > > > responsibilities to the city police. This is a significant issue, and
> >
> > > in
> >
> > > > > other cities where the Park Police have been folded into the city
> >
> > > police,
> >
> > > > > the parks end up not getting the police service that is needed.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > This would be very useful to me personally. After a brief examination, it
> >
> > > > has become clear to me that I am full of an enormous amount of crap, and
> >
> > > > with more non-park cops I stand a better chance of having it beat out of
> >
> > > > me.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > With more non-park police we can blow away more useless people with
> >
> > > > medical problems.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > With more non-park cops we can better defend the rich against First
> >
> > > > Amendment protestors (just what country do they think they live in
> >
> > > > anyway? And what makes them think they have any rights?)
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > With more non-park police we can CODEFOR clear away useless poor people
> >
> > > > and unAmerican small businesses so developers can make a bundle serving
> >
> > > > rich people and big businesses.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > With more non-park cops we can crack a lot more heads with hard-swung
> >
> > > > batons, butter up a lot more eyes with pepper spray, swear at and threaten
> >
> > > > lower class people and protestors with guns.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > With more non-park cops we can hear a lot more Craak!! and Smack!! and
> >
> > > > Owwww!! and Down on your knees you little piece of #####!!!
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > All of this would make GREAT television!
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > --David Shove
> >
> > > > Roseville
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> >
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> >
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> >
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> >
> > >
> >
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> >
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