Doug Mann wrote:
> I don't agree with Michael Atherton that liberal educational
> philosophy perpetuates school failure. We don't agree
> about what makes good schools good. And I doubt that we
> could agree on what a good school looks like. I think that a majority
> of students in Minnesota's public school system are enrolled
> in schools that are doing a great job of educating nearly all of
> their students. Although I engage in what some call 'public
> school bashing,' I also do a little public school cheerleading
> from time to time.
It's true that Mr. Mann and I have different perspectives of the
public schools. On some topics, such as ability grouping,
we have diametrically opposed views, however that will not prevent
me from voting for Mr. Mann. In fact I've already endorsed his
candidacy because I believe that he's the most passionate
advocate for students on the ballot and he knows his research.
It does make me a little sad that the two school critics
ostracized by the Triune should be struggling over
what might be the last open slot in the general election, but
this is a political process and I shouldn't be surprised by political
maneuvering. Because there are substantive issues in this post,
I will reply to help make issues clearer for voters.
> How do public schools where 95-99% of the students pass the
> Minnesota Basic standards on the first try differ from the public
> schools in Minneapolis, leaving aside student background
> characteristics? One difference is that they don't have a
> nonacademic work-readiness curriculum. Instruction in good public
> schools is done the same way it is done in good private schools.
> Instruction is based on individualized educational planning, not
> ability-grouping. That's why a majority of public schools in Minnesota
> get about the same results as the better private college preparatory
> schools.
Minnesota has some wonderful schools, however many of them just don't
happen to be public schools in Minneapolis. I'm not sure that I agree
that reason that schools in greater Minnesota do well is because,
"Instruction is based on individualized educational planning, not ability-grouping.
If Mr. Mann has specific research (and not secondary implications) on these issues
for all of the schools in Minnesota I would like to review them.
> Lets consider 3 policy changes proposed by Michael Atherton
> which go against the grain of so-called liberal educational
> philosophy: (See message posted by [EMAIL PROTECTED],
> dated 8/31/2002 2:46:29 PM Central Daylight Time):
Before I address this argument, I'd like to make it easier for you to
decide who to vote for.
1) I support testing teachers for knowledge of their subjects.
2) I support structured and disciplined learning environments.
3) I support institutional procedures for removing failing teachers.
If you don't support these goals then you might want to reconsider
voting for me and vote for Mr. Mann who appears by implication to
oppose them. This is only one part of my general program to
help improve the public schools, but it is an important part.
> If the public schools in Minneapolis are failing because of contemporary
> educational philosophy, teacher training programs that overemphasize
> general teaching methodology, weak-kneed liberal school administrators,
> and teachers unions, then all of the public schools in Minnesota
> must be failing because just about all the public schools
> in Minnesota have those things in common.
I don't think that this logic is valid. Schools in greater Minnesota may
not need the same emphasis on class structure and discipline as is
needed here. Intercity schools are not the same as rural and
suburban schools. Many of the social behaviors for maintaining
quality learning environments are often well established in middle-
class children. If you think that being a teacher or administrator in an intercity
schools is the same as in rural areas, then I've already lost this argument.
The "student centered" teaching techniques promoted by Progressive educators
will obviously work more effectively with students who are self-disciplined
and self-motivated. The point here is the same as I was illustrating in
relation to the District's argument that small class sizes improve student
achievement. Just because two factors are correlated doesn't mean that
they cause each other. There are fewer telephone poles in rural Minnesota
that doesn't mean that removing telephone poles in Minneapolis will improve
student performance. And, just because Progressive teaching techniques
work for well mannered students doesn't mean that they will work for difficult
students. Anyone who has taught knows that good students can often
learn the material even with poor teaching. Good teaching is critical for
success in Minneapolis.
I also don't believe that the same population of teachers applies for jobs
to teach in intercity schools as apply and get hired to teach in suburban schools.
The latter may very well be the teachers more likely to be classified as
expert by descriptions above. My point is that to be a successful
teacher or administrator in Minneapolis may mean that you have to be
better than your peers in other places where it is easier to teach and that
the differences I'm citing that are due to Progressivist educational
philosophy may only become obvious in challenging environments.
Jim Mork wrote:
> I kinda thought Doug and Michael wouldn't see eye
> to eye. Michael says he is in the race because
> of his experience of failure.
Sorry, I never said that I was running for school board
because of my experience of failure. I said that I wanted
to help kids succeed. My dropping out of high school
was caused by a complex number of factors and my
interest in education by an even more complex set of
motivations, skills, interests, and goals. I love to teach,
I can't think of anything that I would rather do with my
life. I'm interested in being on the school board because
I think that I have a better understand of the problems and
solutions than any of the other candidates. I can't just sit
by another year while the board repeats the same tried
excuses and continues to implement ineffective solutions.
> Doug probably had a
> different experience and does not see the
> "failure" that Michael professes to see.
The District website has reported a failure to graduate
rate of 44% and dropout rates of 38% for African-
American Students. Also from the District's website:
April 18, 2001-After four years of steady growth,
the Minneapolis Public Schools' eighth grade Minnesota
Basic Standards Tests in reading and math significantly
declined according to scores released today by the state's
Department of Children, Families and Learning. District-wide,
51 percent of students passed the reading exam, down from
56 percent last year; and 42 percent passed the math exam,
down from 45 percent last year.
51% passed basic reading and 45% passed basic math. That
fits my definition of failure. Mr. Mann seems to believe that these
results are due primarily to "ability grouping." I believe that the
problems are more complex.
> I didn't have an experience of failure in public schools,
> either. People want to say the schools don't
> work as well as they used to. But we have to
> realize that society has changed in a multitude
> of ways since the "good old days". Kids don't
> revere the kind of people I did. Parents have
> more interests that interfere with providing
> attention to kids. Business spends a lot of time
> distracting kids in many different ways, making
> it harder to concentrate.
I don't necessarily believe that schools don't work
as well as they use to. I'm saying that the schools
don't work as well as they SHOULD.
> Dropouts like Bill
> Gates provide a rationalization to "do your own
> thing" instead of being an academic grind. Not
> too many decades ago, it was a privilege to go to
> school. Now its what everybody does and doesn't
> have the cachet of something exclusive anymore.
Buying a lottery ticket provides a rationalization to "do
you own thing." Just because Bill Gates became
the world's wealthiest man doesn't mean that everyone
can. If you know anything about the history of
Microsoft you'd recognize that serendipity played
a great part in its success. We can't go into the
public schools and tell students that, "Since Bill
Gates made it you can too."
> Michael's proposals can't deal with any of these
> things. They seem based on an assumption of
> institutional failure rather than cultural
> failure. But this is the kind of cultural rot
> that is the first stages of aging of a
> civilization, and our refusal to revise radically
> our values is a sign that we aren't going to head
> it off.
My proposals can't deal with what things? The
chance to be Bill Gates? You're right, I believe
that the problems in the schools are due to
institutional failure and bad management. Maybe
not all of the problems can be solved by policy
changes, but I believe that we can make significant
progress. Your position seems to be that we are
in the Last Days of the American Empire, I don't
agree. There's only one thing that can bring down
this country in the next hundred years, immense
stupidity and blind arrogance.
> Schools must be about teaching skepticism and the
> critical thinking process that will resist the
> brainwashing.
Well, this shows that opponents can nearly always
find something to agree on.
> Conservative thinkers will never
> lead in that process. They will compel the Pledge
> of Allegiance which is about blind followership.
You know, if you'd like to make it your hobby to
repeatedly attack me on the list, you should take
the time to find out what my positions are. They're
available on my webpage. I'm not surprised that Mr. Mann
and Mr. Mork have seized on my use of the word "conservative"
to try and defame me. I use the word because I think that
it's important that people begin to understand that there's
a difference between "true" conservatives and Republican conservatives.
The difference being that true conservatives hold to a strict
philosophy of individual rights and the basic ideals set forth
in our Constitution and Republican conservatives waver back and
forth on whatever moral imperative is popular at the moment.
So many Republicans support a flag burning amendment to the
Constitution, are opposed to gay marriage and partner benefits,
are willing to use Big Government to enforce family values, and
believe that we can install patriotic values by forcing students
to recite the Pledge and say prayers in school. I don't.
Michael Atherton
http://QualityEd.US
Candidate for Minneapolis School Board
Prospect Park
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