I had the opportunity to read the two bills mentioned by Rep. Kahn. Reading HF2448 [1]: grants permanent resident noncitizens the entitlement to vote in local goverment elections.
Reading HF2453 [2]: allows local goverment the ability to entitle permanent resident noncitizens to vote in it's elections. It appears that these bills are designed so that only one or the other should pass. The first if permanent resident noncitizens will be able to vote in any local government and the second if they the local governments will be free to determine if permanent resident noncitizens can vote in the local elections. Currently, local goverments are required to not allow this. Personally, I believe in decentralization of government and putting the power as locally as possible, so out of the two, I would favor HF2453. I am not clear if this would authorize the local government to choose which elections would be open or if it is "all or nothing". Could Minneapolis open the City Council vote but not the Mayoral if it wished? Michael Atherton brought up the sentiment that a line must be drawn between who is a citizen and who is not. [3] I am a citizen of Minneapolis, I am a citizen of Minnesota, I am a citizen of the United States of America, and I am a member of the Human Race. Among other things. The lines are drawn in different places on these citizenships. There is a hierarchy of loyalty which is semi-codified and semi-personal. Which take precedence - my loyalty to my city or my state? Loyalty to country overrides both. Is there a reason that we can't recognize a person as being part of Minneapolis but still being a guest of the United States? The federal constitution doesn't say so. As far as resident noncitizens becoming citizens (this has been brought up a number of times), it is not as easy of a process as some people seem to think, and even while they are noncitizens, they still have all the responsibilities of citizenship, and their interest in municipal issues may well weigh the same as mine. I do agree with Michael that the issue over who has a right to representation is not the same as the illegal voting issue and solving the one will not solve the other. If someone votes illegally, I hope they get caught and they deserve the trouble they get for it. Michael Hohmann brought up the concept that "Citizenship and the associated right-to-vote imply a degree of allegiance to our country and the fundamental principles that underlie our republic, i.e. the Bill of Rights and the Constitution"[4] There's a few responses in different directions that I have to this. First of all, you're talking about US Citizenship which implies the right to vote for national leadership. The Constitution (and ammendments) make no provisions for how local or state leadership is determined. If a city were to be run by a local church, that would not be unconsitutional (as long as it were not prohibited by the state constitution). The question currently being raised regards local politics. As far as answering the "taxation without representation" principle for national politics, I'd suggest revoking the 16th ammendment, passed in 1908. As far as citizenship implying a degree of allegiance to our country, the only case I know that to be true is when a person becomes a citizen of the country. I personally think it would be worthwhile to modify the 14th ammendment to get rid of the concept of "automatic citizenship", but that's a really hoary issue and not appropriate for this list. US citizenship and taxation is a national issue. We're talking local. There is quite a bit that could be discussed regarding barriers to citizenship as well, but again, that may be more appropriate for a different list. (I do feel that conversation is worthwhile) Regarding the concept that the concept of wanting to make sure everyone who pays taxes gets some representation is placing a low value on citizenship that may be because they have never paid for their right to vote.[5] I wonder if when this was written, the author wrote it because he thought it would anger those it was directed at (thereby proving it wrong, as to those who didn't value citizenship wouldn't be hurt by the accusation) or if he thought it was dead on. Responding as one of those who has been pushing for concept to be considered, it made me angry. Angry enough that I wanted to wait some time before I answered. I think you underestimate the diversity of people and opinions that have risked their lives and died for this country and I think you understimate the motivations and reasons why those of us who make noise against the way things are now do so. >From a paper on the Revolutionary War. "Perhaps two of the most notable injustices, as perceived by the colonists, were the Stamp Act and the Intolerable Acts. ... The colonists were so angry because they had no voice in Parliament which passed the law, thus came the famous cry, "No taxation without representation!" The colonists would protest these laws with the Boston Tea Party." There was more than this, but this was certainly part of it. My ancestors died at Lexington and Bunker Hill, and I'm not going to forget what they died for. My family has it's share of soldiers, even a general. My family has also had it's share of people who fought against domestic injustice and unjust wars. My line is not in conflict, we all believe in the same thing - the ideals this nation was founded on and we'll fight anyone, foreign or domestic, to defend those principles. Local elections do not have to be a related to American Citizenship, take your pick: Tax and give representation or do not. >From the same post [5], came "advocate for removing some of the privileges of citizenship. I wonder if next they will be just as willing to remove their rights to free speech." Hopefully, I avoided too much invective, but I could not let that go unresponded to. To reiterate what Robin said, why does everyone think of this as all or nothing? Maybe it is OK not to have children and noncitizens voting for the president, but how about school board or park board? How about the idea of giving them their own at-large representative? How about letting each locality decide for themselves how they want to do this? There was also the statement that those who are likely to die for the country do get a vote. I disagree. How many people who are 18 to 20 had the opportunity to vote for the people sending them to fight? To vote for the people making the policies that led up to the war? When military service is voluntary, there's not a problem, but if there's a draft? Back to the noncitizens, as someone else pointed out, resident noncitizens can get drafted. And then, "Some have said their 12 year old children are just as smart and well informed as they are." I actually disagree with that. As smart, possibly, I really don't know how innate intelligence develops - kids can certainly pick things up faster than adults. As well informed, I'd hope not. I would say, 12 year old children are worth listening to. While adults generally have more experience, children often have a more open mind and less preconceptions. That's why product designers will often work with children to figure out what the best natural design is. Should you hand city hall to a bunch of eigth graders? Probably not, but it may very well be worthwhile to get them involved and hear what they have to say. ### [1] http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/cgi-bin/getbill.pl?number=HF2448&session=ls82&version=latest&session_number=0&session_year=2001 [2] http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/cgi-bin/getbill.pl?number=HF2453&session=ls82&version=latest&session_number=0&session_year=2001 [3] http://www.mnforum.org/pipermail/mpls/2002-October/017640.html [4] http://www.mnforum.org/pipermail/mpls/2002-October/017647.html [5] http://www.mnforum.org/pipermail/mpls/2002-October/017707.html and just because I think they're worth reading again... [6] http://www.mnforum.org/pipermail/mpls/2002-October/017648.html [7] http://www.mnforum.org/pipermail/mpls/2002-October/017737.html - Jason Goray, Sheridan, NE Citizen and very proud of it. (Doesn't mean I like the Administration or their policies) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! 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