Eli Kaplan wrote: > MA: Bad statistics can be geared to show anything, > valid statistical techniques cannot. Although liars > can use statistics, you don't need statistics to lie. > What is valid statistical techniques? I used statistics > in my experimental work. If I used all the data is would > indicate a certain result and I could draw certain conclusions. > However, if I dropped one experimental result, my conclusion > would be different. This is out of 20-30 separate but identically > done experiments. I know for a fact that many experimenters, > sociologists, psychologists do drop some experiments in order to > validate their results and prove their hypothesis.
If experimenters selectively include data in order to make their results significant, then they are not using valid statistical techniques. The issue then becomes one of ethics not validity. As I said, "Although liars can use statistics, you don't need statistics to lie." If you are unsure of what accepted and valid statistical methods are I would refer you to "Statistics" by William L. Hays; "Experimental Design: Procedures for the Behavioral Sciences," by Roger E. Kirk; or "Statistical Methods for Psychology," by David C. Howell. As I said before, statistical methodology is a well established tool in many fields. Just because some people misuse them doesn't invalidate their usefulness and validity. You can lie with accounting methodology, as did Enron, but that doesn't imply that accounting is bad thing. > MA: I'm astounded that the defenders of the MPS take such an > anti-intellectual/anti-scientific track, it's something that > I would expect more from right wing Christian fundamentalists. > What has right wing Christian fundamentalists got to with anything. Right wing Christian fundamentalists often eschew many of the basic assumptions of contemporary science, the theory of evolution being just one example. > Are you implying that right wing Chrisitian fundamentalists are > anti-intellectual/anti-scientific who are unable to express their > own beliefs or thoughts or that all defenders of MPS are all right > wing Christian fundamentalists. By extension, all those sending > kids to MPS are may be supporters of MPS are right wing Christian > fundamentalists. I am implying that right wing Christian fundamentalists often make decisions based on religious assumptions that rely on faith rather than empirical analysis. I am not implying that all defenders of the MPS are right wing Christian fundamentalists. However, I am implying that many of the defenders of the MPS may make decisions based on assumptions that rely on faith rather than empirical analysis. > I believe that statistics is taught in MPS, the same way it is > taught in college, graduate schools, wherever. How you use the > data statistically is how your conscience tells you. Your > conscience is a reflection of the your own personnel values. To the extent that statistics are poorly taught I might agree, but the courses that are taught at the secondary level and many of those taught to college undergrads are not the same as those taught in Statistics departments. > Doesn't the fact that there are merit scholars in the MPS > system say something about what these students are learning > and how they are able to apply their knowledge. No. It says nothing unless you include additional information. Looking at the article that was cited here, it appears that a very small percentage of MPS students are merit scholars (that is when you consider the proportion of merit scholars to the total number of students). Even if the percentage were large it might be only because their parents pay for outside tutoring. Who knows? You have no way of knowing without additional information. Once again, I want to emphasize that a small number of successful students tells you very little. You need to look at measures of central tendency (typicality) and spread (variability). > Have you taken a look at the various high schools and seen what > percentage of those that graduate, or are these not the "typical" > student do go on to some form of higher education. As a matter of fact I have. Within the last four years the Tribune reported that approximately 50% of MPS students fail to graduate in four years. The MPS website reported that approximately 38% of Black students dropout and the percentage of Native Americans was higher. Dr. Johnson and many school board members will readily admit that the numbers are too high. I would say that they are disgraceful. > Are you saying that schools in Southeast do not have kids > that graduate and go on for continuing education. That > these kids are not accepted in a "good" college. What does > excellent mean to you? I am saying that if 50% of students fail to graduate, then there are major flaws in our educational system. As I stated previously, saying that SOME students graduate and get into good colleges says very little. Until recently, the University of Minnesota was required to accept almost everyone and the result was high attrition rates, so looking only at those who get into college is not very meaningful. Excellent to me means Berkeley, MIT, Cal Tech, Harvard and a few others (and it depends on the field of study). Once again even if you can identify a few students who got into these schools it says nothing about the half of the students who fail to graduate in four years or the failure of the MPS to meet the needs of minority students. > MA: I have to admit that what I expect for my children > may not be close to the norm expected by most parents. > There are many American families who are not interested > in rigorous academics or a challenging intellectual > environment, but there are other school systems that > meet a variety of expectations, the MPS do not. > I am confused about your expectations of MPS. Do you > feel it should be in the role of parents. MPS tries > to provide a stimulating and challenging environment > within the confines of their budget, teachers ability > and the curriculum which can be regimented by the state > legislature. The profiles of learning did give lots of > flexibility to teachers who knew how to take advantage > of it, but the new curriculum standards is so exacting > that it can diminish teacher creativity. The MPS may try to provide a stimulating and challenging environment within the confines of THEIR expectations. Expectations that I believe are too low or inappropriate. I believe that the new curriculum standards will have very little impact on teacher creativity. If anything they should have greater impact on teacher creativity. > MA: I would like to know why the MPS implemented > SLCs system wide rather than testing them on a smaller > scale first (it seems like an approach that is scaleable). > I would also like to know the preliminary statistics. > Have SLCs had any impact on dropout rates, truancy, > student behavioral problems or student achievement? > If the MPS does not have the systems to collect this > information they're in a world of hurt and in need of > new anagement. > These are good questions and only time will provide the > answer. How long has SLC been in existence? I know, > that programs take time to develop and we have to be > patient until we have followed it for at least 4 yrs, > since that is the time a freshman will have been in > the program and we can see what he does with himself. > I am sure the district will follow the students progress > outside of high school, if there is staff to follow up > on the student. With all the administrative cuts, > that person may not exist. The districts has followed > students post graduation. If I have a child in the MPS then I don't have the time that is necessary to provide the answer. If my child is in high school they will graduate before your time period is up. I asked for the preliminary statistics so that I could see if there was a trend. Truth is that I'm not going to wait for the results of another failed MPS experiment. What were the results of smaller classes? And please don't cite the invalid and bogus data reported by the District (talk about lying with statistics). I'm willing to wait to make a judgment on the usefulness of SLC, but I am not going to submit my children as unwilling subjects in an educational experiment that isn't even designed to provide valid inferences. Michael Atherton Prospect Park TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. 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