On Jan 30, 2004, at 12:26 AM, phaedrus wrote:
Neal Krasnoff's attacks on The Babylon indicate either a personal grudge against The Babylon or a general grudge towards any organization who includes support of Palestine among their political issues.
I repeat:
"The Babylon, as a private entity, has the right to exhibit art as they wish, whether political or not, and state whatever they wish on their web site - and they may also choose to condemn Jews and incite violence against them. I, too, have a right to comment on and condemn such vile Okhranist filth."
It is difficult to discuss the second aspect of the issue without going well beyond the local issues mandate of this list.
I am in agreement - that is why I am limiting my comments - that an art gallery in Minneapolis, the city in which we live, has a web site that calls it's readers to violence, by implication, against Israel and therefore against Jews.
However, claiming that a local arts collective was exhorting attacks on Jews, morally relating them to groups that would use propaganda like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and suggesting that they were destroyed by G-d for their works of evil demands some sort of response.
The Social Justice Left does not have sole jurisdiction over indignation.
Furthering that attack by directly calling the statements of a list member who attempted to describe what the collective was actually about lies adds to the need for a response.
I repeat:
"That is obviously a lie in this case: the website clearly has a written exhortation to "GET OUT AND FIGHT !" - the Jews, no doubt, since the pictures have titles containing the names of Palestinian towns.
It is incitment to violence. That is not being committed to "peace"."
Fighting is not peace.
<snip>
The focus of the political side of things tended to be on the middle east, but they were certainly NOT anti-Jew. There was quite a bit of criticism of Israel and the actions of the Israeli state. There was support for RAWA (a group of Afghani women who has been working for women's rights in Afghanistan for many years). There was concerns about sanctions on Iraq (that dates that one). I remember one film that documented the propaganda that goes into continuing the hate in Palestinian / Israel - on both sides. I recall a very disturbing look on medical conditions in Afghanistan and another film - even worse - on the effects of DU in Iraq. A lot of folks from Anti-War committee could be found there from time to time.
"The Anti-War Committee ... [sees] Israel as an illegitimate apartheid state [...]"
http://antiwarcommittee.org/resources/Palestine/FreePalestine.html
You're not gaining any credibility.
In conversations and discussions there, I recall talking with people of many faiths - Muslim, Jewish, Christian. I am pretty sure there were Buddhists, pagans, agnostics, and atheists as well. I never observed anyone getting upset at anyone for their choice or lack of faith at The Babylon. Would that be the case at an organization with an anti-Jewish agenda?
If you <didn't> talk to people of many faiths, I'd say you were living in an underground bunker. Your above comment, however, is immaterial.
<snip>
When it came to politics (which is not all that The Babylon was about), the organizers certainly did have a focus of concern on the middle east - particularly with Iraq, Palestine, and Afghanistan. While some of the people there were decidedly anti-Israel, I met none who were anti-Jewish.
"[D]ecidedly anti-Israel" can have a number of interpretations. The Anti-War Committee is against the very existence of the State of Israel - the homeland of the Jews - and that is prima facie anti-semitic.
The people I interacted with at the Babylon would have been appalled at the idea of exhorting violence against Jews.
Really.
Finally, to respond to a specific exchange:
Anyone who visited the center would know that the artists and community members involved were deeply committed to peace and social justice.
That is obviously a lie in this case: the website clearly has a written exhortation to "GET OUT AND FIGHT !" - the Jews, no doubt, since the pictures have titles containing the names of Palestinian towns.
It is incitment to violence. That is not being committed to "peace".
One can only draw that conclusion if they hold "the Jews" responsible for the situation in Palestine - a claim I did not hear at The Babylon or see in those pictures. If that interpretation is made, the interpreter brings the prejudice in with them.
I can't argue with such logic.
The interpretation I take from it and took from The Babylon was that to "GET OUT AND FIGHT !" means to get out there and do something - both locally and non-locally.
You or whoever is responsible for the website should choose their words more carefully.
Get out there and <do something>? Fight against the Jews - that is the implication of the web page. And you speak to me of prejudicial interpretations.
<snip>
To fight - like "infatada" - means to struggle. Violence is a form of struggle, but only one form. There are many, many non-violent ways to fight - and ultimately, they achieve more lasting success.
Empty rhetoric.
I realize that Anti-Semitism is in vogue lately, but if you're going to act globally - in your case - please don't act locally.
Asserting my white male privilege by climbing telephone poles at twenty below zero,
Neal Krasnoff
Loring Park
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