Although I have no advanced degree, this old Anthropology major has got to object to the opinion expressed in the first post below (pasted below asterisks). Human beings are different from other social mammals in that our use of culture, information passed across generations outside of the genes, is highly evolved and exploited by us. Our successes or failures most often have to do with the details, large or small, of our cultures. Language, verbal or written, is culture even though as Doug Mann points out below, we are hard wired to learn language in the first years of our lives. If we have little exposure, we have little culture; I guess that is essentially Sundin's point. I know successful stupid people as well as failed intellegent folks and vice versa (won't get into criteria for success or failure except to suggest that having loads of money has little to do with it), but the variables involved in success or failure cannot be boiled down exclusively to genetics or culture or "race" (a mythical term with no real meaning in this discussion). The difference between all these folks may only be the preparation they had for where they happened to land in any particular time in their lives. You can separate out groups based on features that we have been conditioned to accept as "race" and make suppositions, but the standard distribution curve remains essentially similar to the one you see when you do not discriminate in this way, i.e., smart and stupid are available in all of our complexions. If you properly feed, clothe, and stuff full of time tested human culture any human child, in most cases they'll have a reasonably good life. It is that f***ing simple. It only gets complicated when you impose measures of success or failure -- then things can get really ugly; perhaps "Race War" ugly. Mr. Mann cites a tract, "The Coming Race War in America" as his citation for a study from Columbia University that neither he nor I have likely read, and we are supposed to believe that he is making a valid conclusion as David Brauer suggests in his post? (also pasted below) I say no; as far as I know in my ignorance of the study, the conclusions could have been entirely different from what Mann posits or they could be just plain wrong, i.e., just because a study is done does not mean that it was done well (and of course Carl T. Rowen might have it wrong; Has that ever happened?). Unfortunately when one acquires a large vocabulary, it sometimes leads to a greater ability to say something stupid or obvious with great embellishment. If I've done that here, I'm very sorry. But I will continue to feed, shelter, and clothe myself to express my great knowledge or great ignorance right here for some time to come. ;-)
Bill Kahn Prospect Park Not running for school board and not a parent. *************************************** Message: 5 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 16:22:26 EDT From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Mpls] Teacher union president at Lucille's Kitchen To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Louise Sundin referred to a "30 million word gap" in an attempt to explain the difference in academic performance between black and white students, presumably a reflection of differences in exposure to the spoken language during a child's first 3 years. One would have to read at a pace of 200 words per minute for 15,000 hours to expose a child to that many words. Why didn't Ms. Sundin just come out and say that black students are generally inferior to whites as learners, at least as far as the ability to acquire language skills is concerned, due to some defect in African-American culture? That was certainly implied. Ms. Sundin is expounding a "culture of poverty" theory that is just as lacking in any scientific foundation as the idea that "stupid genes" are more heavily distributed among black people. And there is an explanation supported by research that does not support the contention that blacks are basically less intelligent than whites. The ability to learn to speak a language is imprinted on just about everyone's neural circuitry. If you are exposed to a language, you learn it. Language instruction is not necessary. And a person's innate ability to acquire language skills cannot be impaired to a significant degree unless there is very little to no exposure to any language during the first three years of life. -- The process of learning a written language is quite different. The ability to learn to read and write is generally not imprinted. Instruction is necessary Here is alternative explanation for average differences between black and white children on cognitive ability tests at the point they enter the school system: White people, on average, have higher incomes, and people with higher incomes generally spend more on preschool programs. In a study of 483 low-birth-weight children from birth to age five, Greg Duncan at Northwestern University and Jean Brooks-Gunn and Pamela Klebanov at Columbia University compared IQ test scores of Black and White children from families with similar economic situations. White children outscored Black children by an average of 3 points: not a significant difference - source: Rowen, Carl T. (1996) The Coming Race War In America pp. 281, 292-3; Little, Brown & Company. -Doug Mann, King Field Mann for School Board www.educationright.com ---------------------------- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 16:07:42 -0500 From: David Brauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Mpls] Teacher union president at Lucille's Kitchen To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Jun 22, 2004, at 3:22 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Louise Sundin referred to a "30 million word gap" in an attempt to > explain > the difference in academic performance between black and white > students, > presumably a reflection of differences in exposure to the spoken > language during a > child's first 3 years. One would have to read at a pace of 200 words > per minute > for 15,000 hours to expose a child to that many words. > > Why didn't Ms. Sundin just come out and say that black students are > generally > inferior to whites as learners, at least as far as the ability to > acquire > language skills is concerned, due to some defect in African-American > culture? > That was certainly implied. I think drawing such an implication is unfair. Do you deny such a vocabulary gap exists? Did the crowd go nuts or agree? All Sundin is doing is aggregating a number that over time. Quantification, though, is not explanation, and to put words in Sundin's mouth seems unsupported by the above evidence. You hit on a really solid theory for the gap later in your post. > Here is alternative explanation for average differences between black > and > white children on cognitive ability tests at the point they enter the > school > system: White people, on average, have higher incomes, and people with > higher > incomes generally spend more on preschool programs. In a study of 483 > low-birth-weight children from birth to age five, Greg Duncan at > Northwestern University > and Jean Brooks-Gunn and Pamela Klebanov at Columbia University > compared IQ > test scores of Black and White children from families with similar > economic > situations. White children outscored Black children by an average of 3 > points: not > a significant difference Any reason to believe Sundin disagrees with this? No matter what the cause, society insists public school teachers bridge these gap five years after they first open. That's a tough task even for good teachers. When I hear teachers talk about this, it's to advocate for earlier childhood education to head off learning gaps before they get worse. I'm guessing - only guessing - this is something Doug Mann and Louise Sundin could agree on. Peace out. David Brauer Kingfield MPS parent ------------------------------ REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract ________________________________ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
