Of course alcohol is dangerous to others if the drinker drives after drinking enough of it. As a recovering alcoholic, I've experienced or heard just about every story possible about the short and long-term effects of alcohol consumption, let alone my own sweet history with drink. Mr. Thompson's recitation below of alcohol's role in deaths, disabilities and crime is right on the money. In this case, then, he defeats his own argument.
Why? Smoking doubles the per capita consumption of alcohol. Smokers, especially smokers trying to quit, will tell you that when they have a drink, they can't help but light up. And once they start the cycle, they drink more and smoke more and drink even more. Prohibiting smoking reduces alcohol consumption - at that's what's angering bar owners. They don't want their per capita alcohol profits to drop even though drinkers, smokers, nonsmokers and the drivers who must cope with alcohol-sotted bar patrons exiting the pubs anywhere from 10 PM - 2 AM. Now, I find the use of the word totalitarian pretty bizarre. Nothing about legitimate regulation for the public health and safety in the operation of public accommodations is "totalitarian." The Patriot Act is a display of totalitarianism at work - where dissent is suspect, perhaps even a crime in the administration's view; or what we choose to read might make us suspect with FBI access to our library records, etc. That's where you should direct your wrath about totalitarianism. But as for smoking - one cigarette is dangerous to the health of both the smoker and nonsmoker - but, by itself, it doesn't result in the immediate death of others. So how do you regulate the quantity of smoke if you don't eliminate it altogether. Booze impairs one's judgment, behavior, attitude. Cigarettes merely addict us to keep smoking - and drinking - more, but tobacco poison fills the air everyone breathes, not just the bloodstream of the smoker/drinker. They're linked - inextricably - but the results are quite different. With booze, the killing of oneself or others is a lot quicker - when its user is drunk or high. Smoking kills just as dead - it just takes more time. Both are loaded guns to the heads of addicts and others alike. With smoking - everyone's an addict and a killer. With drinking, only the abuser, the alcoholic, kills. The rest who drink in moderation aren't dangerous to themselves and others - until they light up. That's the difference, Mr. Thompson - and why all public smoking has to go. Andy Driscoll Saint Paul -- on 7/22/04 11:43 PM, Tom & Elsa Thompson wrote: Nathan writes;"The smoking ban has nothing to do with morality, and I find the comparison between banning smoking in workplaces and prohibition to be weird." and "I am a strong supporter of a smoking ban. I am also a strong supporter of getting rid of bar closing times and the ban on Sunday alcohol sales. When you come down to it, it is for the same reason: allow people to act as long as it doesn't harm others, but don't allow people to be harmed out of selfishness." Chris writes; "Alcohol can be consumed safely and responsibly" Thompson sez: To me that sounds like selfishness. Since you believe alcohol is not "dangerous" to others or "harm" others. I have seen alcohol ruin and destroy more lives than tobacco ever could. It destroys lives around those who use/abuse alcohol. Just so you know, according to the US Department of Transportation; "In 2002, more than 17,000 people were killed in alcohol-related crashes on the nation's highways, representing a death every 30 minutes. An estimated 258,000 people were injured in crashes where police reported that alcohol was present - an average of one person injured approximately every two minutes." That doesn't sound "weird", it sounds sad. Lots of people who were not drinking, killed by those who were. People allowed to make a choice to drink and then they drove (yes it's against the law, if they are caught), unfortunately for 258,000 people they were caught just a few seconds too late. Laws only work for those who wish to obey them, those who ignore them can do great damage. Look at crime rates. If you look at crimes and violent crimes most will be committed while under the influence of some substance and usually alcohol is involved. These impact a lot of us who did not ask, nor want that person consuming alcohol, however, we are not calling for a ban on alcohol because we were victimized by someone who used that substance. Alcohol use does harm others, as does tobacco use. We can't selectively choose those things we like and say they don't harm others, we have to be objective and admit that most things we do have consequences about other people. I do not support a totalitarian ban on smoking. I may support a modified voluntary or partial ban, but not totalitarian. Just as we have laws against drinking too much, maybe our smoking laws should be based on what is too much. There is always a debate about that though, as we've seen on the when is someone really drunk debate. What is moral to you may not be to me. We all have our idea of morals and you shouldn't impose yours on me, as I shouldn't impost mine on you. Tom Thompson Como Park REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract ________________________________ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract ________________________________ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
