>>>>> "Aaron" == Aaron Neumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Aaron> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> I think thatthere are at least three more reasons to be opposed to PR:
>>
>> 1. In Minneapolis, people who live together tend to have the same
>> concerns, so representing them regionally makes sense. People who
>> live near Calhoun Square care about parking; people who live near
>> the lakes want them to stay nice. Other people have different
>> issues. People in some parts of the city are going to be
>> front-and-center worried about crime. Others are more likely to
>> be harmed by automobiles and think traffic enforcement is more
>> important, etc.
>>
>>
Aaron> Sure, a lot of my neighbors share the same concerns, and
Aaron> those concerns vary from NEIGHBORHOOD to neighborhood. But
Aaron> just because folks share concerns does NOT mean that they
Aaron> share the same SOLUTIONS to those concerns.
Well, but some solutions have to win, and some have to lose, having a
big stew of deadlocked solution candidates is one of my primary
reasons for not wanting to see PR.
That's
Aaron> determined by ideology, education, life experience and
Aaron> often, political parties. Again, I want to state that NOT
Aaron> ONE of my elected officials, with the exception of my
Aaron> neighborhood organization representatives, actually live in
Aaron> my neighborhood (that we all so diligently sign with our
Aaron> names with at the end of every posting). That being said,
Aaron> I feel Samuels, my current CM as of now, does represent
Aaron> more of my values than the other choice I had after the
Aaron> primaries. The nice Republicans who live right next door
Aaron> to me feel that Valdis Rosenthal, who ran for that very CM
Aaron> seat, would have represented their values better. They
Aaron> became dis-engaged after the primaries, when we (Ward 3)
Aaron> were left to choose from two DFL-ers. PR allows SOLUTIONS
Aaron> to SHARED concerns to seriously be brought forward due to
Aaron> MORE representation. How is this a bad thing?
It's a bad thing if more representation leads to gridlock, or more
representation leads to candidates who answer only to very small
groups, and just sell their votes (viz the example of small religious
parties in Israel that I cited in my email).
At the end of the day PR doesn't change the fact that some people are
going to see their solutions adopted, and some will see them not
adopted.
>> 2. [I'm not so sure I know how I feel about this one] Proportional
>> representation, like at-large elections, favors people who turn
>> out for elections, over those who sit at home. Some people have
>> fussed about this in connection with at-large elections. On the
>> one hand, I think that this leaves some people unrepresented. On
>> the other hand, if you're just sitting home and watching TV,
>> you're gonna be unrepresented anyway --- you'll just have someone
>> who is labeled as your representative, but since they have no way
>> of knowing what you want them to do, how does this benefit you?
>>
>>
Aaron> Yes, PR favors those who turn out for elections (a good
Aaron> thing).
I'm inclined to agree with you, but since I'm always a skeptic, let's
consider some reasons why this might not be a good thing:
1. I've read a lot of complaining on this list about how the at-large
elections in this city, for example for school board, favor those
evil people in Southwest (which I suppose includes me). The
people who are expressing those complaints presumably don't feel
that favoring those who turn out for elections.
Similarly, we've heard some complaints about tax inequity, and the
claim has been made that renters carry too much of the city's tax
burden. Why does this happen? They don't vote as much as
homeowners! Or, possibly, they vote, but aren't sophisticated
enough to realize that their landlords are being taxed at a very
high rate and this translates to higher rents....
2. At the expense of bending the rules of the list a little, consider
how this plays out on a national scale. A good thing about this
country is that our elderly are no longer so likely to die in
poverty. A bad thing is that no one even seems to seriously
consider that young families might be having a health-care crisis
--- all we hear is about how the elderly ought to have
prescription drug coverage. Well, what about the drug needs of a
working poor family's children? The elderly vote, and they vote
their self-interest. The working poor? Not so much...
I'm inclined to think that no democracy can fix the problem of people
not voting that well. But geographically-based voting does provide a
limited counterweight.
Aaron> But even better than this, PR leads to MORE voter
Aaron> participation.
This is an empirical claim that you're putting forward. What evidence
do you have for it?
>> 3. Proportional representation leads to gridlock, grotesque
>> allocations of pork, etc. No doubt this will be controversial.
>> However, I encourage you to consider, for example, politics in
>> Israel, where religious nutters get vast quantities of national
>> dollars, and paralyze vital policy issues, because they can make
>> or break coalitions. No thank you! The more I see of many-party
>> democracy, the more I think two-party isn't so bad... I wouldn't
>> mind seeing a couple of additional parties pop up with some
>> representation, but if we're going to end up with 10 or 12, I'd
>> rather have 2.
>>
>>
Aaron> And this analysis is based on what? Israel right now is
Aaron> actually side-stepping the "religious nutters", the
Aaron> settlers that you vehemently describe, BY building a
Aaron> coalition to withdraw from the West bank and parts of Gaza
Aaron> (sorry LM - couldn't let that comment go). There's a
Aaron> reason that new democracys such as South Africa (when
Aaron> Apartheid ended), Afghanistan, and now Iraq, among a
Aaron> variety of other advanced societies around the world
Aaron> (again, sorry LM - making the point that PR can work here
Aaron> too in our beloved city), are ALL using PR.
Hmmmmmm..... I'm not willing to give up my democracy for
Afghanistan's just yet. And more than 60% of Israelis have wanted to
get out of Gaza for a long time. Your counter-argument doesn't really
hold --- it's taken an unprecedented national tragedy and tons of
bloodletting to overcome the gridlock that came from a pathological PR
system.
Aaron> It works and is the most fair! And lots of other
Aaron> municipalities RIGHT HERE IN THE U.S.A are using PR right
Aaron> now. For a fairly complete list, list, please visit:
Aaron> http://www.fairvote.org/pr/uslocalities.htm
Aaron> Voting with some form of proportional representation - a
Aaron> system that makes sense for "non-partisan" elections - is
Aaron> simple and something worth seriously considering for
Aaron> bettering the electoral process here in Minneapolis,
Aaron> thereby creating a better Minneapolis for our future. YOU
Aaron> decide which candidates you would like to see elected and
Aaron> you rank those candidates in order of preference - knowing
Aaron> that a lower choice will never hurt the chances of a higher
Aaron> choice. That's it! Your vote will be counted toward the
Aaron> highest candidate on your ranked list who can be helped by
Aaron> your vote. As many people as mathematically possible will
Aaron> elect one person (and most voters will help elect one of
Aaron> their top two choices).
But what you describe above isn't simple PR voting! You've suddenly
introduced this ranking thing, as if it's a given that you get it in a
package with PR. You don't! You can have PR with single, indivisible
voting, and I believe that much of the world uses that scheme.
As a final note: I'm inclined to think that politics in America are
ALREADY too polarized. And I think that PR encourages the dangerous
shattering of our political discourse into ever more, and ever
smaller, interest groups. It also encourages a kind of political
puritanism according to which "compromise" is a bad word.
I'm still unconvinced, and if this comes to a ballot, I for one will
be voting "no thanks."
Best,
R
--
Robert P. Goldman
ECCO
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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