I was certainly not saying that no one should help their kids or let them take consequences for their activities -- but, if your kid hasn't gotten arrested or even if they have, there is not that much that the "system" does -- I was taking issue with the idea that all the parents of kids who are in trouble are "bad" parents or condoning what their kids do. There are a lot of kids on the fringes of these activities where the parents are totally freaked out [I was one of them] and where they can't find help [it cost me a fortune and took more hours than my 60 hour a week job]. There isn't much out there, believe me. And if you're a single parent trying to make it on a crappy income, I can't imagine how you would do it. We need, as a society to offer more than arresting the kids after they are in BIG trouble -- because when they are just in little trouble, not much happens -- and throwing them into punitive situations where they just reinforce each other. PROGRAMS -- job, after school, etc is what we need, not punishment.
Diane Wiley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Plante" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 10:51 AM Subject: RE: Fw: [Mpls] Terrill's open letter... > > > Diane Wiley writes: > > Wow, I am overwhelmed by some of the assumptions here that Dennis is making. > > First, that the parents of gang kids didn't teach their kids values. Lots > and lots of gang kids have parents who did try to teach their kids values > and the parents are totally freaked out and without any help to deal with > their kids. Let's say you have a young kid who is associated with a gang > and selling pot to get money, which gets him deeper and deeper into the > gang. What do you do? Say "honey, get an honest job to earn money"? And > where does that job come from? RT just said on the radio that federal funds > were cut for the jobs for gang kids program. They got 29 jobs last year and > hope to get 80 this year for gang kids. That's a drop in the bucket. > There's another city program for jobs for kids that also had cuts. They > have enough money for 300 jobs, says RT and they need 3000. Wanna keep kids > out of gangs? Job programs are probably the best way. If you want to help > kids, lecturing them about values is great, but getting them a job is > changing their behavior and actually DOING SOMETHING. > > A little statistic about jobs I read in the Nation -- there was a study > where they had adult males, black and white, in Milwaukee go out to get jobs > with similar resumes. The white males with HS diplomas and a criminal > record got called back almost twice as much as the black males with HS > diplomas and NO criminal record. Black teenagers can get jobs, but a lot of > them are going to need help, and that also goes for Asian, Latino and White > teenagers, gang members or not. > > Second, kicking your kid out. I got news for you. You can't do that > legally. Not if they are under 16, and many of the "gang kids" are under > 16. And what happens if they are 16 and you DO kick them out? How do they > support themselves? More pot selling, stealing, gangbanging? That's real > positive. You've lost any chance at helping them go straight and lead a > decent life. It's a basic tenent of all kinds of therapies, cognitive, > behavioral, whatever, that you have to replace the bad behavior with > something else or you haven't got a chance at real change. This punitive > stuff does not work at changing people. > > And finally, look at the impact on families where there are problem kids. > These families are already stressed out. I know a woman who has 4 kids, has > been on and off welfare and lives in section 8 housing. Her oldest son got > busted for crack and she almost lost her house. What the heck good is that > going to do? She's trying to work at her job and make it so she can stay > off welfare, and they threatened to kick her out of her house. Hello? Her > oldest didn't even live there, but he gave their address because where does > he live anyway? But what if he did? Do you think she necessarily HAD to > know that he was dealing? I don't think so. And if she did, what could she > do about it except tell him not to? And what possible good would it do to > destroy her and her other kids' lives? > > From Tangletown now because I had to leave Powderhorn for my teenagers' sake > > > Dennis Plante Responds: > Diane, it appears you cared for your child enough that you removed them from > a potentially life-threatening situation. I commend you for that. And I > believe, as a parent, it was your responsibility to do so. > > My belief? A parents responsibility does not stop at telling a child "get > an honest job and earn money". If you have a child (and decide to keep and > raise that child), you then "own" the responibility of raising them. > > If support of family members does not exist in a single parent scenario then > that parent DOES have a responsibility to their child and society to seek > assistance from the community & government in intervening with the problem > they are experiencing. I do not believe it is acceptable to allow the child > to continue with activity that is both illegal and detrimental to THEIR > over-all well-being. And YES, I do believe that having the child removed > from the household IS necessary at times, for the good of all members in the > family unit. But only after everything that could possibly be done has been > done. > > To knowingly allow a child to continue their involvement with street gangs > plays a part in condemning that child to less of a future than they might > have had. Intervention at ANY COST, at ANY POINT in the scenario, will > always result in offering a better future to that child than standing by and > doing nothing. > > I have met and had the chance to speak with many former street-gang members > that are now out and involved with the communities they live in. Almost > without exception, they have told me that they wished someone had intervened > (with them) when they had first gotten involved with the activity that > landed them in trouble. > > > > dennis plante > lind-bohanon > > > REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 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