Don Redman wrote:
On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 15:10:52 +0100, Orion wrote:
I'm highly in favor of adding them, simply because in the music
cultures surrounding some of the artists I listen to it's become
standard practice for the fans to do audio only rips of all the
concert DVDs. Not adding them feels like pretending that some music
doesn't exist simply because it's inconvenient to fit in it in our
definitions...
I think this argument is important.
IMO it points into the direction of adding the ripped audio but as bootleg.
Note that I personally do not favor labeling them as bootleg, but
keeping in mind what Tarragon said, that seems to be the second most
logical thing to do.
The first most logical thing is, of course, to make MB fully DVD-aware.
But I completely ignore the technical details involved.
I'm not sure if that actually is the most logical thing to do. There
are a lot of things about DVD structures that would be irrelevant and/or
confusing to add. It almost comes back to the old argument about
whether information should be entered exactly as on the cover or if we
accept that the information needs to be transliterated and translated by
a human into a format that is usable in the database and to other people.
Since there's been a lot of abstract talk in this discussion I'm
including some very specific examples in this reply (skip to the bottom
if you have no patience or your eyes glaze over when you see any
non-English titles ^^)
First, a very simple disc:
ハロ☆プロ パーティ～！2005～松浦亜弥キャプテン公演～
1 vts, 1 pgc, no special features, all chapters point directly at the
next one.
Label discography entry (with tracklist):
http://www.up-front-works.jp/discography/zetima/29/v_66/index.html
Screen shots of the menu:
http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/5608/hppm18vt.jpg (chapters 1-14)
http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/2649/hppm27je.jpg (chapters 15-27)
Screen shot of a chapter analysis:
http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/2019/hppchapters0ok.png (note that
there are 28 chapters, with the last one being less than 2 seconds long.
Most DVDs have this)
And tracklist with times as I ripped it:
松浦亜弥・W・メロン記念日 - ハロ☆プロ パーティ～！2005～松浦亜弥亜弥キャ
プテン公演～ - 01 - OPENING 1:23
松浦亜弥・W・メロン記念日 - ハロ☆プロ パーティ～！2005～松浦亜弥亜弥キャ
プテン公演～ - 02 - Yeah！めっちゃホリディ 2:54
松浦亜弥・W・メロン記念日 - ハロ☆プロ パーティ～！2005～松浦亜弥亜弥キャ
プテン公演～ - 03 - ザ☆ピ～ス！ 3:31
松浦亜弥・W・メロン記念日 - ハロ☆プロ パーティ～！2005～松浦亜弥亜弥キャ
プテン公演～ - 04 - MC1 3:41
W・松浦亜弥 - ハロ☆プロ パーティ～！2005～松浦亜弥亜弥キャプテン公演～ -
05 - ロボキッス 3:19
W - ハロ☆プロ パーティ～！2005～松浦亜弥亜弥キャプテン公演～ - 06 - 愛の
意味を教えて！ 3:49
W - ハロ☆プロ パーティ～！2005～松浦亜弥亜弥キャプテン公演～ - 07 - デコ
ボコセブンティーン 4:11
松浦亜弥・辻希美・斉藤瞳・村田めぐみ - ハロ☆プロ パーティ～！2005～松浦
亜弥亜弥キャプテン公演～ - 08 - 抱いてHOLD ON ME！ 2:54
加護亜依 - ハロ☆プロ パーティ～！2005～松浦亜弥亜弥キャプテン公演～ - 09
- ブギートレイン’03 3:12
松浦亜弥・加護亜依・斉藤瞳・村田めぐみ - ハロ☆プロ パーティ～！2005～松
浦亜弥亜弥キャプテン公演～ - 10 - MC2 3:13
メロン記念日・松浦亜弥 - ハロ☆プロ パーティ～！2005～松浦亜弥亜弥キャプ
テン公演～ - 11 - 肉体は正直なEROS 4:41
メロン記念日 - ハロ☆プロ パーティ～！2005～松浦亜弥亜弥キャプテン公演～
- 12 - 赤いフリージア 3:56
メロン記念日 - ハロ☆プロ パーティ～！2005～松浦亜弥亜弥キャプテン公演～
- 13 - This is運命 4:03
辻希美 - ハロ☆プロ パーティ～！2005～松浦亜弥亜弥キャプテン公演～ - 14 -
ね～え？ 2:34
加護亜依・柴田あゆみ・大谷雅恵 - ハロ☆プロ パーティ～！2005～松浦亜弥亜
弥キャプテン公演～ - 15 - あなたなしでは生きてゆけない 4:04
松浦亜弥・辻希美・柴田あゆみ・大谷雅恵 - ハロ☆プロ パーティ～！2005～松
浦亜弥亜弥キャプテン公演～ - 16 - MC3 8:00
松浦亜弥 - ハロ☆プロ パーティ～！2005～松浦亜弥亜弥キャプテン公演～ - 17
- ずっと 好きでいいですか 4:00
松浦亜弥 - ハロ☆プロ パーティ～！2005～松浦亜弥亜弥キャプテン公演～ - 18
- LOVE涙色 4:17
松浦亜弥 with W - ハロ☆プロ パーティ～！2005～松浦亜弥亜弥キャプテン公演
～ - 19 - ♥桃色片想い♥ 5:12
松浦亜弥 with メロン記念日 - ハロ☆プロ パーティ～！2005～松浦亜弥亜弥
キャプテン公演～ - 20 - The美学 3:26
松浦亜弥・W・メロン記念日 - ハロ☆プロ パーティ～！2005～松浦亜弥亜弥キャ
プテン公演～ - 21 - 浮気なハニーパイ 3:15
松浦亜弥・W・メロン記念日 - ハロ☆プロ パーティ～！2005～松浦亜弥亜弥キャ
プテン公演～ - 22 - LOVEマシーン 5:32
松浦亜弥・W・メロン記念日 - ハロ☆プロ パーティ～！2005～松浦亜弥亜弥キャ
プテン公演～ - 23 - 笑顔に涙～THANK YOU! DEAR MY FRIENDS～ 5:54
松浦亜弥・W・メロン記念日 - ハロ☆プロ パーティ～！2005～松浦亜弥亜弥キャ
プテン公演～ - 24 - MC4 5:35
松浦亜弥・W・メロン記念日 - ハロ☆プロ パーティ～！2005～松浦亜弥亜弥キャ
プテン公演～ - 25 - ドッキドキ！LOVEメール～アカペラバージョン～ 4:49
松浦亜弥・W・メロン記念日 - ハロ☆プロ パーティ～！2005～松浦亜弥亜弥キャ
プテン公演～ - 26 - ALL FOR ONE ＆ ONE FOR ALL! 4:38
松浦亜弥・W・メロン記念日 - ハロ☆プロ パーティ～！2005～松浦亜弥亜弥キャ
プテン公演～ - 27 - カーテンコール 6:36
You will note (well, if you're obsessive about reading) that the last
track is missing 3 minutes - this version of it, assuming times were
added to the entry, would qualify as bootleg because there was three
minutes of non-music stuff at the end of the last track that I clipped.
Without times added though it would be identical to the official list.
This one could be added straightforwardly, and could have been simply
copy+pasted (with some reformatting) from the official site except they
for some reason left out MC4 on their tracklist.
You could also identify this one fairly easily if you just stored the
PGC + chapters info from the vts set's ifo.
---
Now one just a little trickier:
コンサートツアー2005 夏秋 『バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～』
1 vts, 2 pgcs, 1 "bonus video" that is in the 2nd PGC by itself, all
chapters point directly at the next one in both PGCs, neither PGC links
to the other.
Label discography entry (with tracklist):
http://www.up-front-works.jp/discography/zetima/29/v_66/index.html
Screen shots of the menu:
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/7505/koharumenu1.jpg (chapters 1-17)
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/66/koharumenu2.jpg (chapters 18-32 +
bonus video)
Screen shot showing the pgc layout:
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/4177/koharudvdd.png (pgc1 == main
concert, pgc2 == bonus video)
Screen shots of a chapter analysis:
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/2536/koharupgc1.png (pgc1)
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/5857/koharupgc2.png (pgc2) (note that
again both PGCs have an extra, <2 second trailing chapter)
And tracklist with times as I ripped it:
モーニング娘。 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 01 - OPENING
1:57
モーニング娘。 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 02 - 色っぽ
い じれったい 4:25
モーニング娘。 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 03 - ＭＣ-１
0:21
モーニング娘。 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 04 - LOVE マ
シーン 3:39
モーニング娘。 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 05 - ラブ＆
ピィ～ス！HEROがやって来たっ。 3:51
モーニング娘。 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 06 - ＭＣ-２
3:13
モーニング娘。 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 07 - 恋は発
想 Do The Hustle! 4:20
モーニング娘。 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 08 - ザ☆ピ～
ス！ 3:26
モーニング娘。 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 09 - 恋愛レ
ボリューション２１ 3:33
吉澤ひとみ・高橋愛・小川麻琴・藤本美貴・亀井絵里・田中れいな - バリバリ
教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 10 - 恋の始発列車 3:47
モーニング娘。 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 11 - ＭＣ-３
3:23
新垣里沙・道重さゆみ・久住小春 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！
～ - 12 - バイセコー大成功！ 1:54
高橋愛・亀井絵里・田中れいな - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～
- 13 - ラストキッス 3:08
吉澤ひとみ with 亀井絵里・道重さゆみ・田中れいな・久住小春 - バリバリ教
室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 14 - 男友達 3:05
モーニング娘。 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 15 - ＭＣ-４
0:34
藤本美貴 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 16 - そっと口ずけ
て ギュっと抱きしめて 2:27
紺野あさ美 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 17 - 涙が止まら
ない放課後 2:07
モーニング娘。 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 18 - Memory
青春の光 3:27
モーニング娘。 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 19 - シャボ
ン玉 2:59
モーニング娘。 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 20 - ＭＣ-５
2:22
高橋愛・紺野あさ美・小川麻琴・新垣里沙 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっ
しゃい！～ - 21 - 初めてのロックコンサート 3:12
吉澤ひとみ・藤本美貴・亀井絵里・道重さゆみ・田中れいな・久住小春 - バリ
バリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 22 - パパに似ている彼 3:03
モーニング娘。 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 23 - AS FOR
ONE DAY 3:28
モーニング娘。 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 24 -
Mr.Moonlight～愛のビッグバンド～ 4:02
モーニング娘。 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 25 - 直感～
時として恋は～ 2:47
モーニング娘。 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 26 - ＭＣ-６
3:28
モーニング娘。 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 27 - 女子か
しまし物語２ 4:26
モーニング娘。 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 28 - THE マ
ンパワー!!! 2:57
モーニング娘。 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 29 - ここに
いるぜぇ！ 4:23
モーニング娘。 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 30 - ＭＣ-７
0:43
モーニング娘。 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 31 - ふるさ
と 7:56
モーニング娘。 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 32 - Go
Girl～恋のヴィクトリー～ 6:20
モーニング娘。 - バリバリ教室～小春ちゃんいらっしゃい！～ - 33 - 恋のダ
ンスサイト 3:17
For lack of a better method the bonus video was numbered as track 33.
This one again could almost be taken direct from the website if not for
the leaving out of the bonus video from the tracklist there. Rules for
handling discs with multiple PGCs and multiple VTS sets, especially ones
that duplicate content between them, would definitely be needed.
This one could still be identified easily enough though with just a dump
of the PGC+chapters info from the vts set's IFO. In general that would
work with most DVDs, even if they did have more than one vts.
However then you have a complicated one:
JAM PUNCH Tour 2005
Label discography entry:
http://avexnet.jp/item/ohtuk/disc/product/AVBD-91340.html
Too lazy to grab all the same screen shots for this one. However, the
biggest issue with it is that while the tracklist on the website does
match that in the menu and in the PGCs, there are hidden, bonus features
on disc 2. You can reach them through some weird menu tricks on a
standalone player, or you can just stick the disc into a PC and rip the
menu vob, splitting it by cell ID to get the gig of extra stuff they hid
in there split nicely into its 6 components. Simply storing the
information from ifos would fail here, as the content is stored in the
menu vob itself, and reached all from jump commands, no regular chapters
in that sense. To create an ID for recognizing discs like this you'd
have to store the PGC+chapter info from the VTS IFOs and a list of all
files and their sizes. That would at least recognize the disc, but
storing info about the hidden content in the menu vob would be very
difficult without adding a fairly high level of ifo parsing ability into
whatever MB app had to do the IDing. Even then though there isn't much
of an order to it per se, other than the de facto one of the cell order
within the vob. The content itself is more or less unstructured for how
you access it and how it's presented to you, leading to a problem with
MB and its need for numbering things.
---
So if you're still with me at this point, what I'm trying to get at is
this: some DVDs could probably be analyzed automatically and entered in
a way that would make them easy enough to be given an "official" status
within MB. However many have features either in their layout or in the
nature of their content that makes them resistant to a mechanical direct
copying of their info into a DB format compared to what can be done with
CDs. They need a higher order of human interpretation than what many
may be comfortable calling "official", but with the ambiguities present
in the source itself that interpretation seems necessary in order to get
anything entered at all. Calling them bootleg feels incorrect simply
because the term is usually used in MB to refer to either pirated
releases or band allowed, fan made recordings that aren't commercially
released. In this case the situation is more along the lines of
"entering information about an official release as best as can be done."
The database can't easily accomodate all the information about a DVD
release, so changes have to be made to the data to get the database to
take what it can handle. What I'm arguing is that those changes are
just a more advanced form of the type of changes we make when entering
an artist as Korn instead of KoЯn.
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