Eu diria que, muito mais do que uma cultura naval, trata-se de uma cultura nacional. As FA's, queiramos ou n�o, refletem a sociedade. Se as fragatas holandesas, por exemplo, possuem tripula��es mistas isso demonstra o estado social daquela na��o. Outro exemplo extremo s�o as tripula��es indianas, onde o sistema hier�rquico � t�o arcaico (segundo o ponto de vista ocidental) que parece coisa do s�culo XVI. Pergunte sobre o embarque de mulheres em navios da marinha do Ir� para um iraniano e voc� ter� um inimigo para o resto da vida. Apenas uma quest�o cultural ... e n�o naval. -----Mensagem original----- De: Alexandre Moraes de Castro e Silva <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Data: Segunda-feira, 15 de Novembro de 1999 23:13 Assunto: Re: [naval] NYT de hoje: Mulheres nos Submarinos Americanos >mas a questao, poggio, � que a marinha tamb�m tem sua pr�pria cultura. >cultura naval � um assunto naval tanto quanto cultural. senao... eu escrevo >sobre historia naval e vc vai dizer que isso � um assunto que deve ser >tratado em hist�ria, e nao em marinha. que discutir sobre a revolta naval >de 1893 n�o � um assunto naval? dif�cil de nao ser... > >amcs > > > > > >-----Mensagem original----- >De: Guilherme Poggio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Data: Segunda-feira, 15 de Novembro de 1999 13:53 >Assunto: Re: [naval] NYT de hoje: Mulheres nos Submarinos Americanos > > >>Eu acho que � um assunto muito mais cultural do que naval. Devem existir >>f�runs de discuss�o por a� que levariam a coisa mais para o lado da >>igualdade de oportunidade, quest�es legais/sociais, etc. A minha opini�o >>sobre esse assunto seria a mesma dada pelo Capt. Michael Tracy: >> >>"Making submarines bigger would limit their speed and maneuverability. >>Squeezing in additional bunks would mean losing something else, like >>weapons." >> >>e ponto final. >> >> >>-----Mensagem original----- >>De: Alexandre Moraes de Castro e Silva <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>Para: Lista Naval <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>Data: Segunda-feira, 15 de Novembro de 1999 10:38 >>Assunto: [naval] NYT de hoje: Mulheres nos Submarinos Americanos >> >> >>>Pros que acham que a discuss�o de homossexuais na marinha n�o � um assunto >>>naval (n�o entendo isso! o que poderia ser mais assunto naval que isso?!) >>>talvez v� achar que esse tamb�m n�o �. Enfim... Eu acho muito mais >>>interessante discutir essas quest�es de �tica e comportamento nas marinhas >>>do mundo do que comparar sidewinders com piranhas ou coisas assim. At� >>>entendo nego n�o gostar, tem gosto pra tudo, n�o entendo � nego vir dizer >>>que � off topic!! >>> >>> November 15, 1999 >>> >>> >>> New Debate on Submarine Duty for Women >>> >>> By STEVEN LEE MYERS >>> >>> ORFOLK, Va. -- Women in the U.S. Navy today command warships and pilot >>>combat jets off aircraft carriers, but there remains one part of the fleet >>>where they cannot serve: aboard the nation's nuclear-powered submarines. >>> >>> Now, an influential military advisory committee has reignited the >>debate >>>over the exclusion, recommending that the Navy plan to revamp existing >>>submarines and begin building new ones with the separate bunks and >>bathrooms >>>necessary to allow women to join one of the service's most storied and >>>traditional fraternities. >>> >>> "It's important we re-examine what is still closed to women," said >Mary >>>Wamsley, the chairwoman of the group, the Defense Advisory Committee on >>>Women in the Services, the Pentagon's main body that recommends policies >on >>>the issues that face women in the armed forces. >>> >>> The recommendation has provoked a flurry of protests from those inside >>>and outside the Navy who believe that putting women side by side with men >>in >>>the extraordinarily tight confines of a submarine would disrupt the crew >>and >>>compromise its war-fighting ability. >>> >>> It has exposed a significant rift between the Navy's civilian >>>leadership, led by Richard Danzig, the secretary of the Navy, and some of >>>its senior officers. >>> >>> Danzig signaled support for integrating the submarine fleet in a >speech >>>to the Naval Submarine League last summer, but in the ensuing controversy >>>over his remarks, he retreated. In the speech, he warned that the >>"submarine >>>community" -- a tightly knit cadre of crewmen and officers -- risked >>>becoming dangerously out of touch with society if it did not adapt to >>>include women, as well as more minority submariners. >>> >>> "The most Narcissus-like thing about creating something in your own >>>image, about being in love with your own image, is the continued and >>>continuous existence of this segment of the Navy as a white male >preserve," >>>he said. >>> >>> But here in Norfolk, home port for the Navy's Atlantic Fleet and 12 of >>>its 57 nuclear-powered attack submarines, the "white male preserve" has >>been >>>largely unmoved by Danzig's concerns and the committee's recommendations. >>To >>>them, the singular experience of spending weeks submerged in tense, >>>claustrophobic conditions -- with little space and no privacy -- makes the >>>introduction of women virtually unthinkable. >>> >>> "I only know one way, the way I was brought up," said Cmdr. James >Foggo >>>III, the commanding officer of the USS Oklahoma City, an attack submarine. >>>"I've been doing this for 18 years, and it works well." >>> >>> Danzig's aides insist that he merely hoped to spawn a debate with his >>>remarks last summer, not impose a change, but no sooner had he delivered >>the >>>speech than the Navy's top admiral, Jay Johnson, flatly rejected the idea. >>>"For us, for me as chief of naval operations, I do not intend to change," >>he >>>said. >>> >>> Navy officials have not publicly responded to the committee's >>>recommendation, saying that they must first provide additional information >>>the committee requested. The officials said the issue was not dead, noting >>>that the Navy reviews the restrictions annually, but they emphasized that, >>>for now, the service has no intent to lift them. >>> >>> The advisory committee, however, said that the issue cannot wait -- >not >>>only because of questions of sexual equality, but also because of >>>practicality. >>> >>> Despite offering extra pay, the Navy has had difficulty recruiting >>>enough men to serve aboard submarines, in part because of the more >rigorous >>>intellectual and psychological standards they must meet. Permitting women, >>>who today make up 14 percent of the Navy's 370,000 personnel, would vastly >>>expand the pool of potential recruits. >>> >>> The Navy has also begun building the next generation of submarines, >>>known as the Virginia class, which, like today's submarines, will have >>>berthing areas designed for an all-male crew. Not including accommodations >>>for women now, the committee said, would make installing them in the >future >>>significantly more expensive or keep women off submarines for decades to >>>come. >>> >>> "Because submarines currently in the fleet are expected to stay in >>>service as long as 40 years, plans must be made now for gender-integrated >>>crews," the committee wrote in its recommendations. "This would allow the >>>assignment of the most highly qualified personnel regardless of gender." >>> >>> Many of the arguments on both sides are the same as those made when >the >>>Navy first allowed women on support ships in 1978 and on combat ships in >>>1994. Since then, women have joined crews even on ships once considered >too >>>small for mixed crews, most recently the Navy's mine hunters. >>> >>> The Navy prohibits women from serving in 33,000 positions, about >25,000 >>>of which are aboard submarines. The other areas are in the Seals and in >>jobs >>>that directly support Marine combat forces deployed aboard Navy ships. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Other navies, including those of Australia, Norway and Sweden, have >>>removed sexual barriers on submarines, but U.S. Navy officials quickly >>point >>>out that those crews are not subjected to the arduous cruises of American >>>submarines, which can remain submerged for days or weeks at a time. >>> >>> "In addition to personnel stress inherent in all combat vessels, >>>submarine crews must endure long periods of submerged operations, >>>unrelenting crowding, lack of privacy, infrequent communications with >>family >>>and the outside world, no ability even to go topside for fresh air and a >>>view," a 1995 assessment by the Navy said. That report also cited a higher >>>incidence of health problems with women, among other things. >>> >>> Ms. Wamsley and others dismiss those concerns. "It is ludicrous to say >>>the living conditions and psychological conditions have more of an impact >>on >>>women than on men," said Ms. Wamsley, the deputy chief of police in >>Commerce >>>City, Colo. >>> >>> Even proponents concede that submarines pose unique challenges for >>>integration, all of which were evident aboard the Oklahoma City, whose >crew >>>is preparing to head to sea on a training exercise on Monday. >>> >>> At 360 feet long, tip to tip, the submarine seemed impossibly crowded, >>>even without its full crew. The Los Angeles class of submarines was built >>in >>>the 1980s for a crew of 108; with additions like Tomahawk cruise missiles >>>that require additional personnel, the Oklahoma City now has 145. >>> >>> Passageways are so narrow that crewmen have to turn sideways to pass >>one >>>another, chest to chest. The enlisted men share two bathrooms and sleep >>>stacked three deep in racks small enough to make turning over problematic. >>> >>> When at sea, the lowest-ranking crewmen have to share bunks, sleeping >>in >>>shifts. To minimize that unpopular practice, known as "hot racking," the >>>submarine has installed mattresses in its torpedo room. Only the commander >>>and executive officer have private rooms, each no bigger than a closet. >>> >>> "The thing about submarines is, space is a commodity," Foggo said, >>>sitting in the officers' ward room, which serves as dining hall, >conference >>>room, chapel and, in case of medical emergencies, operating room. >>> >>> Capt. Michael Tracy, chief of staff for the Atlantic fleet, said the >>>constraints complicated the integration of women. Making submarines bigger >>>would limit their speed and maneuverability, he said. Squeezing in >>>additional bunks would mean losing something else, like weapons. >>> >>> "Anything we give away for bunks, we're giving away combat >capability," >>>he said. >>> >>> Even the seemingly simple alternative of putting women in the smaller >>of >>>the submarine's existing enlisted-men's berthing areas would raise >>problems. >>>A recent Navy report noted that fewer women would share one of the two >>>bathrooms, forcing more men to share the other, raising questions of >>>equality. That would also not answer the question of what to do with women >>>who are officers. >>> >>> Also, because of submarines' design, crewmen have to operate critical >>>electronic, hydraulic and air systems that pass through berthing areas, >>>meaning they would need access at all times to areas where women would >>>sleep. Even the commander's room has a valve for the submarine's ballast >>>tank, which can be operated only by reaching over his fold-out bed. >>> >>> Then there is cost. The Navy estimates it would cost $300,000 per bunk >>>to integrate submarines because of wholesale design changes that would be >>>needed. Converting aircraft carriers costs $4,000 per bunk. >>> >>> Still, some in the Navy think a change is inevitable. "If they want to >>>make it happen, it can happen," one senior Navy official said. Another >>noted >>>that Johnson's tenure as chief of naval operations ends in June, and the >>>Navy's civilian leaders could raise the issue again under a new chief. >>> >>> Even in the fleet, opposition is not universal. Aboard the Oklahoma >>>City, Fireman David Cross, an enlisted man, said that as a matter of >>>equality, it would be a good thing to introduce women into submarines' >>>fraternal world. As for potential problems with privacy, he said, "It's >>just >>>like anything else in life: You have to adjust." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>============================================== >>>Lista naval >>>Para sair desta lista mande mensagem para: >>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>sem nada no Subject >>>e com o comando a seguir no corpo da msg: >>>"unsubscribe naval" (sem aspas) >>>============================================== >>> >> >>============================================== >>Lista naval >>Para sair desta lista mande mensagem para: >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>sem nada no Subject >>e com o comando a seguir no corpo da msg: >>"unsubscribe naval" (sem aspas) >>============================================== >> > >============================================== >Lista naval >Para sair desta lista mande mensagem para: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >sem nada no Subject >e com o comando a seguir no corpo da msg: >"unsubscribe naval" (sem aspas) >============================================== > ============================================== Lista naval Para sair desta lista mande mensagem para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] sem nada no Subject e com o comando a seguir no corpo da msg: "unsubscribe naval" (sem aspas) ==============================================
