"Why, Sir, you find no man, at all intellectual, who is willing to leave the Internet. No, Sir, when a man is tired of the Internet, he is tired of life; for there is on the Internet all that life can afford." — Samuel Johnson
On 12 December 2015 at 11:31, ruth catlow <[email protected]> wrote: > I like his final statement- that the Internet is the same as society- not > an exceptional place. > > > On 12/12/15 11:24, marc garrett wrote: > > I've just copied this from the Nettime list, > and thought others here may be interested in the subject... > > wishing you well. > > marc > > < > http://motherboard.vice.com/read/pirate-bay-founder-peter-sunde-i-have-given-up > > > > Pirate Bay Founder: 'I Have Given Up' > > Written by JOOST MOLLEN > > December 11, 2015 // 02:26 PM EST > > "The internet is shit today. It's broken. It was probably always > broken, but it's worse than ever." > > My conversation with, Peter Sunde, one of the founders and > spokespersons of The Pirate Bay, did not start out optimistically. > There's good reason for that: In the last couple of months, the > contemporary download culture shows heavy signs of defeat in the > battle for the internet. > > Last month we saw Demonii disappear. It was the biggest torrent > tracker on the internet, responsible for over 50 million trackers a > year. Additionally, the MPAA took down YIFY and Popcorn Time. Then > news got out that the Dutch Release Team, an uploading collective, > made a legal settlement with anti-piracy group BREIN. > > While it might look like torrenters are are still fighting this > battle, Sunde claims that the reality is more definitive: "We have > already lost." > > Back in 2003 Peter Sunde, together with Fredrik Neij and Gottfrid > Svartholm, started The Pirate Bay, a website that would become the > biggest and most famous file-sharing website in the world. In 2009, > the three founders were convicted of "assisting [others] in copyright > infringement" in a highly controversial trial. > > Sunde was incarcerated in 2014 and released a year later. After his > time in jail he started blogging about the centralization of power by > the European Union; ran as a candidate for the Finnish Pirate Party > during the elections to the European Parliament; and founded Flattr, a > micro donation system for software developers. > > I wanted to speak with Sunde about the current state of the free and > open internet, but this conversation quickly changed into an > ideological exchange about society and capitalism -- which is, > according to Sunde, the real problem. > > The following interview has been edited for clarity and length. > > **MOTHERBOARD: Hey Peter, I was planning on asking you if things are > going well, but you made it pretty clear that that isn't the case.** > > Peter Sunde: No, I don't see any good happening. People are too easy > to content with things. > > Take the net neutrality law in Europe. It's terrible, but people are > happy and go like "it could be worse." That is absolutely not the > right attitude. Facebook brings the internet to Africa and poor > countries, but they're only giving limited access to their own > services and make money off of poor people. And getting government > grants to do that, because they do PR well. > > Finland actually made internet access a human right a while back. That > was a clever thing of Finland. But that's like the only positive thing > I have seen in any country anywhere in the world regarding the > internet > > **So, how bad is the state of the open internet?** > > Well, we don't have an open internet. We haven't had an open internet > for a long time. So, we can't really talk about the open internet > because it does not exist anymore. The problem is, nobody stops > anything. We are losing privileges and rights all of the time. We are > not gaining anything anywhere. The trend is just going in one > direction: a more closed and more controlled internet. That has a big > impact on our society. Because they are the same thing today. If you > have a more oppressed internet, you have a more oppressed society. So > that's something we should focus on. > > But still we think of the internet like this new kind Wild West place, > and things are not in chains yet, so we don't care because everything > will be OK anyhow. But that is not really the case. We have never seen > this amount of centralization, extreme inequality, extreme capitalism > in any system before. But according to the marketing done by people > like Mark Zuckerberg and companies like Google, it's all to help with > the open network and to spread democracy, and so on. At the same time, > they are capitalistic monopolies. So it's like trusting the enemy to > do the good deeds. It is really bizarre. > > **Do you think because a lot of people don't consider the internet to > be real or a real place, they care less about its well-being?** > > Well, one thing is, we have been growing up with an understanding of > the importance of things like a telephone line or television. So if we > would start to treat our telephone lines or TV channels like we treat > the internet, people would get really upset. If someone would tell > you, you can't call a friend, you would understand then that this is a > very bad thing that is happening. You understand your rights. But > people don't have that with the internet. If someone would tell you, > you can't use Skype for that and that, you don't get the feeling it's > about you personally. Just by being a virtual thing, it's suddenly not > directed at you. You don't see someone spying on you, you don't see > something censored, you don't see it when someone deletes stuff out of > the search results out of Google. I think that's the biggest problem > to get people's attention. You don't see the problems, so people don't > feel connected to it. > > I would rather not care about it myself. Because it's very hard to do > something about it, and not become a paranoid conspiracy person. And > you don't want to be that. So rather just give up. That's kind of what > people have been thinking, I think. > > **What is it exactly that you have given up?** > > Well, I have given up the idea that we can win this fight for the > internet. > > The situation is not going to be any different, because apparently > that is something people are not interested in fixing. Or we can't get > people to care enough. Maybe it's a mixture, but this is kind of the > situation we are in, so its useless to do anything about it. > > We have become somehow the Black Knight from Monty Python's Holy > Grail. We have maybe half of our head left and we are still fighting, > we still think we have a chance of winning this battle. > > **So what can people do to change this?** > > Nothing. > > **Nothing?** > > No, I think we are at that point. I think it's really important people > understand this. We lost this fight. Just admit defeat and make sure > next time you understand why you lost this fight and make sure it > doesn't happen again when we try and win the war. > > **Right, so what is this war about and what should we do to win it?** > > Well, I think, to win the war, we first of need to understand what the > fight is and for me it's clear that we are dealing with ideological > thing: extreme capitalism that's ruling, extreme lobbying that's > ruling and the centralization of power. The internet is just a part of > a bigger puzzle. > > And the other thing with activism is that you have to get momentum and > attention and such. We have been really bad at that. So we stopped > ACTA, but then it just came back with a different name. By that time, > we had used all our resources and public attention on that. > > The reason that the real world is the big target for me, is because > the internet is emulating the real world. We are trying to recreate > this capitalistic society we have on top of the internet. So the > internet has been mostly fuel on the capitalistic fire, by kind of > pretending to be something which will connect the whole world, but > actually having a capitalistic agenda. > > Look at all the biggest companies in the world, they are all based on > the internet. Look at what they are selling: nothing. Facebook has no > product. Airbnb, the biggest hotel chain in the world, has no hotels. > Uber, the biggest taxi company in the world, has no taxis whatsoever. > > The amount of employees in these companies are smaller then ever > before and the profits are, in turn, larger. Apple and Google are > passing oil companies by far. Minecraft got sold for $2.6 billion and > WhatsApp for like $19 billion. These are insane amounts of money for > nothing. That is why the internet and capitalism are so in love with > each other. > > **You told me the internet is broken, that it was always broken. What > do you mean by that and do we have extreme capitalism to blame for > it?** > > Well, the thing is the internet is really stupid. It works really > simply in a simple manner and it doesn't take any adjustments for > censorship. Like, if one cable is gone, you take the traffic through > some other place. But thanks to the centralization of the internet, > (possible) censorship or surveillance tech is a whole lot harder to > get around. Also, because the internet was an American invention, they > also still have control of it and ICANN can actually force any country > top level domain to be censored or disconnected. For me that's, a > really broken design. > > But it has always been broken, we just never really cared about it, > because there always have been a few good people that made sure that > nothing bad happened before. But I think that's the wrong idea. Rather > let bad thing happen as quick as possible so we can fix them and make > sure it does not happen in the future. We are prolonging this > inevitable total failure, which is not helping us at all. > > **So, we should just let it crash and burn down, pick up the pieces > and start over?** > > Yes, with the focus on the big war on this extreme capitalism. I > couldn't vote, but I was hoping Sarah Palin won last time in the US > elections. I'm hoping Donald Trump wins this year's election. For the > reason that it will fuck up that country so much faster then if a less > bad President wins. Our whole world is just so focused on money, > money, money. That's the biggest problem. That's why everything fucks > up. That's the target we have to fix. We need to make sure that we are > going to get a different focus in life. > > Hopefully technology will give us robots that will take away all the > jobs, which will cause like a massive worldwide unemployment; somewhat > like 60 percent. People will be so unhappy. That would be great, > because then you can finally see capitalism crashing so hard. There is > going to be a lot of fear, lost blood, and lost lives to get to that > point, but I think that's the only positive thing I see, that we are > going to have a total system collapse in the future. Hopefully as > quick as possible. I would rather be 50 then be like 85 when the > system is crashing. > > **This all sounds quite like some sort of Marxist revolution: a total > crash of the capitalist system.** > > Well, yeah, I totally agree with that. I'm a socialist. I know Marx > and communism did not work before, but I think in the future you have > the possibility of having total communism and equal access to > everything for everybody. Most people I meet, no matter if they are a > communist or a capitalist, agree with me on this, because they > understand the potential. > > **So, is there like a concrete thing we should focus on? Or do we need > to aim for a new way of thinking? A new ideology?** > > Well, I think the focus needs to be that the internet is exactly the > same as society. People might realize that it's not a really good idea > to have all of our data and files on Google, Facebook and company > servers. All of these things need to be communicated al the way to the > political top, of course. But stop treating internet like it's a > different thing and start focusing on what you actually want your > society to look like. We have to fix society, before we can fix the > internet. That's the only thing. > > -- > Marc Garrett > Co-Founder, Co-Director and main editor ofFurtherfield. > > Furtherfield - A living, breathing, thriving network > http://www.furtherfield.org - for art, technology and social change since > 1997 > > Furtherfield Gallery & Commons, > Finsbury Park, London N4 2NQ > T +44(0)208 802 1301/+44(0)208 802 2827 > M +44(0)7717 887923 > www.furtherfield.org > > > _______________________________________________ > NetBehaviour mailing > [email protected]http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour > > > > -- > Co-founder Co-director > Furtherfield > > www.furtherfield.org > > +44 (0) 77370 02879 > Meeting calendar - http://bit.ly/1NgeLce > Bitcoin Address 197BBaXa6M9PtHhhNTQkuHh1pVJA8RrJ2i > > Furtherfield is the UK's leading organisation for art shows, labs, & > debates > around critical questions in art and technology, since 1997 > > Furtherfield is a Not-for-Profit Company limited by Guarantee > registered in England and Wales under the Company No.7005205. > Registered business address: Ballard Newman, Apex House, Grand Arcade, > Tally Ho Corner, London N12 0EH. > > _______________________________________________ > NetBehaviour mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour >
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