On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 12:48 PM, Rob Shakir <[email protected]> wrote:

> Hi Andy,
>
> On August 27, 2015 at 14:48:58, Andy Bierman ([email protected]) wrote:
>
> Did you really think that just because we created a nice DML that
> somehow you would not need to know about the topic of your YANG module?
> I actually have heard this complaint from some people.  Great.  How does
> YANG help?  I still have to be an expert in MPLS to write a YANG module
> that manages MPLS.  Yep.  That's right.  Nothing in YANG helps you
> know more than you do now about specific networking technologies.
>
> No, I didn’t at all.
>
> So, I work operating networks, and the surrounding systems that we use to
> manage them. I could consider myself to have some knowledge in the various
> areas that I’m trying to model right now - and am even luckier to be able
> to work with a bunch of folk who have also operated different networks,
> such that we can figure out how things should be laid out. So, we’re
> writing these modules - and you’ll see them here:
> https://github.com/YangModels/yang/tree/master/experimental/openconfig
>
> What I am saying is that as the person looking at how to /actually use/
> these modules, it is much, much easier for me if I can have some idea of
> where to find things that I know are related, and have some consistency in
> the approach.
>
> The group of people that are writing these modules noted the need for us
> to have some structure. However, the IETF is also writing a bunch of
> modules, which we figure it’d be super-neat if we can use.
>
> So we wrote some conventions, one is a structure; the other is an approach
> for how opstate is modelled.
>
> From your mail, I think that you are saying that you don’t care how we do
> this. If that’s the case we’ll head off and write our modules.
>
> However, there are two discrepancies:
>
>    1. Lots of others in the IETF are writing models, and we’d like all
>    these to combine to be usable. To do this, we need to agree on a structure.
>    NETMOD looked like the place to do this based on the fact that
>    draft-ietf-netmod-routing-cfg is a NETMOD draft. So we brought them here.
>    2. Your objection is based on a specific subset of models that have
>    already been created, that you assert will still need to exist. This is
>    then counter to the fact that I can go and model things how I like. Again,
>    it seems like raising the issues that we have with these models in context
>    of a structure should be something raised with NETMOD, given that these
>    documents are the output of NETMOD according to the data tracker.
>
> There are really two options:
>
> a) NETMOD does not care about how models fit together - because their
> contents are arbitrary. If this is the case, fine, I’ll talk with the area
> directors as to where we should propose these approaches such that the
> pan-IETF models end up working nicely together within the DML that this
> group has defined.
> b) NETMOD does care, and should try and define a structure because it is
> the custodian working group for YANG and YANG models.
>
>
this is a strawman.
Just because some people don't agree that the existing modules should be
moved doesn't mean the NETMOD WG wants every module to create its
own top-level node.

Create some organization for the 194 new modules.
I completely agree with you that these modules should be written with
a coherent development plan in mind.




> I think a lot of my problems are solved by having a defined structure for
> models, that has been worked through by folks with protocol knowledge, and
> knowledge of how these elements are used and managed. I would like it to be
> adopted by the IETF. My view is that b) is currently true - and hence it
> was brought to NETMOD
>


Given that CLIs are being driven by YANG, I completely agree that
understanding of the command hierarchy is useful.   I have no objections
to the creation of a hierarchy or "node placement plan" or whatever.
This is a non-issue.

The issue I see is whether the existing 7 modules should be grandfathered
or whether these RFCs have to be changed to Obsolete status and replaced
with new RFCs.



Andy



>

> At the moment, I can’t reconcile the apparent disparities between your
> statements in this mail and your objections in other messages. Further to
> this, I still cannot see any alternative to the structure that we did
> define - so whilst I can remove /device from the start of the path, which
> ‘protects’ /interfaces [0] - this doesn’t actually help me progress
> anything. This is why “/device or not” is irrelevant.
>
> r.
>
> [0]: Note that actually, some work to refactor 7223 further to just its
> path has been done…
> https://github.com/YangModels/yang/tree/master/experimental/openconfig/interfaces
>
>
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