Ohh everyone is back here. Ok guys, chill, I get there's some old tensions on this project, most of it is before "my time", so I don't know the details exactly. If you need to fight shit off, just have a massive fight now and get it over with, don't walk around in circles.
There had been many many attempts since I got here by random people to put ntk docs on many different platforms, do you remember the social network one? :). It doesn't really matter which platform you choose, as long as we can collate all of the random pieces of information scattered across the web into one place, and we make it easy for new developers/testers to jump right in, which at the moment is what keeps this project stalled. I think a wiki is a good place to start (though the dyne wiki server is terrible, we can live with it for now). About the mathematical model, I don't know what the problems are with it, can someone elaborate? This is the internet goddamnit, and it's 2013, if we need to prove/disprove a theorem we can ask for help from actual mathematicians, we don't need to second guess. If the protocol specifications is mathematically unsound, we can change it, just call the current specs v0.01. I think in the past several years only Luca has contributed code, and a lot of it. Now one is trying to deduct from the contributions you've made, I get it, to all intents and purposes it's your baby. But this is not a 1 man job, this is a massive undertaking that requires the skills and efforts of many extremely talented people, it might be good enough for you to set up a network with your neighbour, it's not enough to set up the foundations for the day the internet goes down. The code itself is good, it's clean, it's readable, you can make heads and tails from it, but it has been very hard for me to get working with it, because i don't know what it does, because vala is some obscure language which wasn't exactly in my top 10 to master languages before ntk, because there is no document which breaks down the code, and there are no instructions on how to debug or test it. It's missing those critical comments at the top of every class which says what this actually does, it has comments on why certain logical steps are taken inside functions, but not what the function does (which i admit it's usually easy to figure out from the name), not how it fits into the rest, no overview. Put yourself in a position of someone who looks at the code for the first time, someone with different coding style to yours, and who only vaguely knows what the thing does. It's not easy contributing. For some reason, this list have attracted a lot of newbies, this isn't a bad thing, as long as they are willing to get their hands dirty, at the end of the day we want someday to make it so that the average cat in r/awww can set up a node on his ipad. The world has changed since ntk was conceived, there are now many mesh and darknet platforms preforming different tasks for different terrains, most of what you needed ntk for you can already do with a combination of other solutions. But there is still room for it in the eco system. The future is no longer the internet, the future is a messy coexistence of different networks and protocols which is virtually unstandardised, and ntk can fit right in there with bridging those. There are a lot of people working on mesh tech now days, a lot of research is being put into this, i recommend going into gnunet's related projects, there are some real gems there. There are a lot of people who will help us out, because we're not in competition with other nets, we can learn from them things you couldn't have possibly known some 10 years ago. It's basically all over the place, and in one unreachable place at the moment, we need at least a few people to have some running servers connected permanently, so that when someone installs a new node he can network with them, we need some sample services/igses. we need to put the vala generated api docs online, we need to put the protocol specifications into the wiki, we need to brutalize and scrutinize those specs for problems, we need to make a list of what is implemented already and what isn't, we need people to scrutinize and brutalize the code, and the traffic it generates,we need a bug tracking system, we need to do a ton of things if we want to kick some life back into this. and we cannot expect Luca to do it, there's no wonder he's burned out, we cannot expect me to do it either, there is too much to do, the foundations for collaboration isn't solid yet. For the wiki, I recommend taking a note or two from the awesome wm wiki, they got contribution working very fluidly there. we can put a call out for help in reddit.com/r/darknetplan, but we have to drop the egos and let bygones be bygones before we can expect anyone to join. I hope i'm not pissing anyone off here, but fuck it, i don't mind pissing people off, feel free to slug me off and call me a hypocrite, i get the sense that we need to have a proper massive fight before we can move on. On 18/05/13 09:21, Luca Dionisi wrote: > Jaromil, > I remember when you set up a wordpress installation. Then nobody went on > shaping it. Maybe it was my fault, because I never gave the necessary > input for what we should put on the site. During this time I made some > (very little, tiny) experience on using wordpress, maybe I could try to > set it up again. > > I understand that very few people have the knowledge and familiarity > with mathematics that Alpt mastered. Anyhow, it seems to me that what > Alpt already produced in terms of theoretical analysis and algorithm is > enough to create a working prototype of the netsukuku network. In > particular not all of the "features" prospected on the dissertation > "scalable mesh networks and the address space balancing problem" dated > 2010 are yet implemented in the software. > This was to say that in my opinion, the netsukuku project could very > well focus on the production of the network as it was designed years > ago, although we do not have at the moment a person with an in-depth > mastering of the mathematical models behind it. > I believe that the features of such a network (no ISP needed, no central > authority, self-forming, self-healing, highly scalable, fully routable, > mesh network, based on current TCP/IP) are still worth, because other > projects that you mention are pursuing different goals. > > If this is what we still are aiming to do, then we can go on discussing > on what to write on the website. What do you think? > > --Luca > > > On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 9:33 PM, Jaromil <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > dear Luca, > > On Fri, 17 May 2013, Luca Dionisi wrote: > > > Hi Jaromil > > I was wondering who the author of the update was. > > Alpt in person. We didn't heard from him since quite a while, then he > asked access to the website to update it with those news. > > I must admit I have criticized his act alread, because it somehow > ignores all the history of netsukuku in recent years, including your > development and that of others. > > > Would you please elaborate what your plans are about the netsukuku > > project? > > I'm not directly involved, if not as a groupie and tester of the first C > implementation, which was also included in dyne:bolic 1. 13 years ago! > Other than that, I had theoretical excanges on the project since its > early days with some of its members, but that's nothing that entitles > me to making plans, nor I have the necessary knowledge and comprehension > of the mathematical models behind NTK. > > But well, Dyne.org is a non-profit foundation which, among other things, > cooperates to the creation of the Museo dell'Informatica Funzionante and > above all cares for preservation of IT history. As such, I've acted upon > the disappearance of the netsuku website back some years ago to keep it > online, a task on which Crash also helped, an early visionary and > developer of netsukuku. Following that, as you might recall, I have > offered to setup a new website if someone wanted to curate it, a task on > which we didn't follow up collectively. But at least I believe nothing > is lost.. > > As of now, the thing I feel like volunteering is to update the online > documentation with the current status of Netsukuku: include its history > until now and all related projects, like your Vala implementation for > instance. > > I think also the recent thread on similar mesh project is of interest > here and we should have a page dedicated to that whose content we can > collectively compile here, since this list already gather many > interested experts. That can be on the wiki I guess. > > What do you think? > > ciao > > -- > http://jaromil.dyne.org > GPG: B2D9 9376 BFB2 60B7 601F 5B62 F6D3 FBD9 C2B6 8E39 > _______________________________________________ > Netsukuku mailing list > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsukuku > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Netsukuku mailing list > [email protected] > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsukuku _______________________________________________ Netsukuku mailing list [email protected] https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsukuku
