Like Sean I’ve been active long ago, lurking for a decade or more. It’s good to be prodded to contribute. I thought of jumping in during some of the recent discussions, notably the ‘Rage against the machine’ thread, but unsure about how my writing will fit in, as I have been writing fiction these days and thinking in narrative terms. It is difficult to see how it could work in the context of this kind of discussion. Perhaps I will try. Best to all. Jordan
> On Jun 8, 2019, at 8:21 AM, Sean Cubitt <s.cub...@gold.ac.uk> wrote: > > I've been active long ago, and lurking for a decade or more, with only > sporadic comments and adds: this look like a good prod to get us silent > majority out of the closet. > > the thing that keeps nettime valuable is a) the contributors, timeliness, and > swift smart dialogues and b) that there still seems to be a common purpose. > > social media start taking the forefront about ten years ago. The neo-populist > right begins to replace the neo-liberal right about ten years ago. Is there > some shared diagram? > > Other lists died for their own reasons: one because it seemed like everything > interesting was on blogs, back when the blogosphere was a thing. Another > because a concept / art movement / political trajectory could be exhausted so > fast it scarcely seemed worth inventing new concepts etc. > > Mailing lists are asynchronous, which is great: more time to think; less > kudos for fast reaction times. More consideration in every sense of the word > > in a few days I'll try to post something closer than this reflection on the > medium to what I think this list is for: the aesthetics, politics and > aesthetic politics of the early C21st -- consideration, wonder and hope > > Sean > > > From: nettime-l-boun...@mail.kein.org <nettime-l-boun...@mail.kein.org> on > behalf of nettime-l-requ...@mail.kein.org <nettime-l-requ...@mail.kein.org> > Sent: 08 June 2019 15:45 > To: nettime-l@mail.kein.org > Subject: nettime-l Digest, Vol 141, Issue 11 > > Send nettime-l mailing list submissions to > nettime-l@mail.kein.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > nettime-l Info Page - mx.kein.org > mx.kein.org > -- a moderated mailing list for net criticism <nettime> is not just a mailing > list but an effort to formulate an international, networked discourse that > neither promotes a dominant euphoria (to sell products) nor continues the > cynical pessimism, spread by journalists and intellectuals in the 'old' media > who generalize about 'new' media with no clear understanding of their > communication aspects ... > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nettime-l-requ...@mail.kein.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nettime-l-ow...@mail.kein.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of nettime-l digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Nettime is in bad shape. Let's see if we can change it. > (John Preston) > 2. The Maker Movement is abandoned by its corporate sponsors; > throws in the towel (Bruce Sterling) > 3. Re: Nettime is in bad shape. Let's see if we can change it. > (John Preston) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2019 15:06:56 +0100 > From: John Preston <wcerf...@riseup.net> > To: nettime-l@mail.kein.org > Subject: Re: <nettime> Nettime is in bad shape. Let's see if we can > change it. > Message-ID: <07a59428-bf8f-419b-841a-ea06bddb2...@riseup.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Just forwarding this up. > > > -------- Original Message -------- > From: Karim Brohi <ka...@trauma.org> > Sent: 8 June 2019 14:35:45 BST > To: John Preston <wcerf...@riseup.net> > Subject: Re: <nettime> Nettime is in bad shape. Let's see if we can change it. > > Nettime is in bad shape - as are most (all?) of the email based discussion > groups on the Interwebs now. > I run another mailing list, started in 1995 in a medical specialty area- - > which finds itself in the same state. Back then email was cool. Now, for > most, email tends to be a flood of work stuff and a pseudo todo list. > Drafting an email is now work, and not associated with pleasure or pure > intellectual pursuit. > > But there's no other suitable medium either. Social media platforms are > too brief to develop ideas. Too easy to fire back "your idea is stupid". > Blog posts and newsletters are too one-sided. Developed/owned by a > specific individual/group of individuals, Comments never have the same > precedence as the original post. The post 'belongs' to the originator, not > to the community. > > Maybe usenet/google groups comes close, but nobody uses them - perhaps > because there's no (effective) 'app for that', and there has to be an > active process of logging in. (Email alerts end up in... email). > > In brief - I think it's the medium not the message. The whole Internet > needs a new medium that encourages long-form discourse and thereby deep > community. That was email, but now it isn't email. I don't know what is > now. > > Karim > > > > > > On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 at 21:34, John Preston <wcerf...@riseup.net> wrote: > > > Just adding my two cents, as per the call. :) > > > > I only discovered nettime in the last few months. I'm a computer-child, > > I've grown up on the net, and one of the people who now take a more > > conservative or critical approach to tech. I came here because I am trying > > to develop as an artist, working with the net as a medium and reflecting > > critically on the net and its constituent parts. I don't post in to every > > thread because a lot of the time I don't have anything worthwhile to add, > > but I appreciate reading: most of the contributions on this list are really > > insightful. > > > > The fact that people are posting meta threads like this is a good sign to > > me, I appreciate a community that can take a critical view of itself. If > > nettime does rap up, let me know where you all go, I'd like to talk more. :) > > > > John > > > > On 7 June 2019 18:38:46 BST, nettime mod squad <nett...@kein.org> wrote: > >> > >> Nettime is in bad shape, don't you think? > >> > >> It has still a lot of goodwill, and more generally there's renewed > >> interest in formats of exchange and collective thinking that > >> aren't defined by the logic of social media. But the dynamics that > >> social media companies exploit are hardly limited to a handful of > >> platforms. For example, nettime has its own 'influencers' -- a 1%, > >> so to speak -- who generate the vast majority of list traffic. > >> That's been true for years. The discussions they sustain may > >> variously seem interesting or annoying, but either way they've > >> become somewhat formulaic. An attentive reader knows more or less > >> what to expect based solely the subject and the sender; and even > >> meta-discussions about whether the list is dominated or by this or > >> that tendency are largely dominated by the same few people. > >> > >> Some might argue the debates that have animated nettime over the > >> last year -- the trajectories of postwar society, neoliberalism, > >> the 'digital,' complexity, surveillance and big tech, Brexit, > >> media and elections, Assange, even the Anthropocene in all its > >> terrifying inclusiveness -- are the defining issues of the day. > >> Maybe so. But if the nettime project had settled for a consensus > >> model of the defining issues of the mid-'90s, it would never have > >> gotten off the ground, and it certainly wouldn't exist almost 25 > >> years later. The challenge, we think, is to maintain a space that > >> attracts ill-defined ideas and uncertain issues -- things and > >> not-things that don't quite exist yet and yet haven't been buried > >> under torrents of authority and theory. > >> > >> So, what can we do? > >> > >> In the past, we've asked people to think about outreach -- say, > >> inviting new people from new contexts. It seems like that's had > >> limited success; but at a time when nettime has been limping > >> along, it's hard to get excited about inviting people to join an > >> environment so heavily defined by habit. We've also joked that > >> shutting it down before it fades into complete senescence might be > >> best. But that joke wasn't really funny, in part because it wasn't > >> meant to be: it was a way of expressing serious concerns about the > >> list's increasingly parochial status. > >> > >> Now, we have a simple proposal: let's switch roles. > >> > >> It goes like this: > >> > >> If you've posted more than others to the list in the last 60 or 90 > >> or 120 or 180 days -- the math matters less than the spirit -- take > >> a break. Let others define nettime, a space made up of nearly 5000 > >> subscribers. > >> > >> If you haven't posted to the list -- say, because it seemed like > >> your ideas, concerns, or whatever you want to share wouldn't fit > >> with nettime's habits -- maybe that will change. > >> > >> Think of it as an un-grand experiment: a way to see what else > >> might happen, who else might speak, what less familiar ideas, > >> perspectives, or styles might spring up. Maybe the list will fade > >> into silence, and we'll be left with a paradoxical object, a list > >> composed *entirely* of lurkers -- not such a bad non-end for > >> nettime. Or maybe not. There might be many ways to find out. For > >> now, rather than the 1% debating how narrowly to define good > >> manners, let's see if a different 'we' can change things. > >> > >> > >> -- the mod squad (Ted and Felix) > >> > >> # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > >> # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > >> # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > >> # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > >> # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org > >> # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: > >> > >> # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > > # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > > # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > > # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org > > # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://mx.kein.org/pipermail/nettime-l/attachments/20190608/490390ed/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 16:21:37 +0200 > From: Bruce Sterling <bru...@well.com> > To: nettim...@kein.org > Subject: <nettime> The Maker Movement is abandoned by its corporate > sponsors; throws in the towel > Message-ID: <a342ce24-4f26-441e-bdbe-38f833458...@well.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > *Well, so much for the O?Reilly Web 2.0 version of popular mechanics. > Fifteen years is not too bad a run by the standards of an increasingly > jittery California Ideology. Now what? ? Bruce S > > > Maker Media goes broke > https://hackaday.com/2019/06/07/maker-media-ceases-operations/ > > Over the years we?ve had the dubious honor of bidding farewell to numerous > companies that held a special place in the hearts of hackers and makers. > We?ve borne witness to the demise of Radio Shack, TechShop, and PrintrBot, > and even shed a tear or two when Toys ?R? Us shut their doors. But as much as > it hurt to see those companies go, nothing quite compares to this. Today > we?ve learned that Maker Media has ceased operations. > > Between the first issue of Make magazine in 2005 and the inaugural Maker > Faire a year later, Maker Media deftly cultured the public face of the ?maker > movement? for over a decade. They didn?t create maker culture, but there?s no > question that they put a spotlight on this part of the larger tech world. In > fact, it?s not an exaggeration to say that the shuttering of Maker Media > could have far reaching consequences that we won?t fully understand for years. > > While this news will surely come as a crushing blow to many in the community, > Maker Media founder and CEO Dale Dougherty says they?re still trying to put > the pieces together. ?I started the magazine and I?m committed to keeping > that going because it means something to a lot of people and means something > to me.? At this point, Dale tells us that Maker Media is officially in a > state of insolvency. This is an important distinction, and means that the > company still has a chance to right the ship before being forced to declare > outright bankruptcy. > > In layman?s terms, the fate of Make magazine and Maker Faire is currently > uncertain? > > *** > > https://techcrunch.com/2019/06/07/make-magazine-maker-media-layoffs/ > > Financial troubles have forced Maker Media, the company behind crafting > publication MAKE: magazine as well as the science and art festival Maker > Faire, to lay off its entire staff of 22 and pause all operations. TechCrunch > was tipped off to Maker Media?s unfortunate situation which was then > confirmed by the company?s founder and CEO Dale Dougherty. > > For 15 years, MAKE: guided adults and children through step-by-step > do-it-yourself crafting and science projects, and it was central to the maker > movement. Since 2006, Maker Faire?s 200 owned and licensed events per year in > over 40 countries let attendees wander amidst giant, inspiring art and > engineering installations?. > > ?Maker Media Inc ceased operations this week and let go of all of its > employees ? about 22 employees? Dougherty tells TechCrunch. ?I started this > 15 years ago and it?s always been a struggle as a business to make this work. > Print publishing is not a great business for anybody, but it works?barely. > Events are hard ? there was a drop off in corporate sponsorship.? Microsoft > and Autodesk failed to sponsor this year?s flagship Bay Area Maker Faire?. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2019 07:45:08 -0700 > From: John Preston <wcerf...@riseup.net> > To: nettime-l@mail.kein.org > Subject: Re: <nettime> Nettime is in bad shape. Let's see if we can > change it. > Message-ID: <f8f8006bb46447a36e1e1a7d5171f...@riseup.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > Each medium of communication has a different quality and bandwidth about > it, and we can use a multitude of media -- nettime doesn't have to be > /just/ a mailing list. Some of us might be better able to contribute via > IRC or other more real-time media. > > John > > On 2019-06-08 15:06, John Preston wrote: > > > Just forwarding this up. > > > > ------------------------- > > FROM: Karim Brohi <ka...@trauma.org> > > SENT: 8 June 2019 14:35:45 BST > > TO: John Preston <wcerf...@riseup.net> > > SUBJECT: Re: <nettime> Nettime is in bad shape. Let's see if we can change > > it. > > > > Nettime is in bad shape - as are most (all?) of the email based discussion > > groups on the Interwebs now. > > I run another mailing list, started in 1995 in a medical specialty area- - > > which finds itself in the same state. Back then email was cool. Now, for > > most, email tends to be a flood of work stuff and a pseudo todo list. > > Drafting an email is now work, and not associated with pleasure or pure > > intellectual pursuit. > > > > But there's no other suitable medium either. Social media platforms are > > too brief to develop ideas. Too easy to fire back "your idea is stupid". > > Blog posts and newsletters are too one-sided. Developed/owned by a > > specific individual/group of individuals, Comments never have the same > > precedence as the original post. The post 'belongs' to the originator, not > > to the community. > > > > Maybe usenet/google groups comes close, but nobody uses them - perhaps > > because there's no (effective) 'app for that', and there has to be an > > active process of logging in. (Email alerts end up in... email). > > > > In brief - I think it's the medium not the message. The whole Internet > > needs a new medium that encourages long-form discourse and thereby deep > > community. That was email, but now it isn't email. I don't know what is > > now. > > > > Karim > > > > On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 at 21:34, John Preston <wcerf...@riseup.net> wrote: > > Just adding my two cents, as per the call. :) > > > > I only discovered nettime in the last few months. I'm a computer-child, > > I've grown up on the net, and one of the people who now take a more > > conservative or critical approach to tech. I came here because I am trying > > to develop as an artist, working with the net as a medium and reflecting > > critically on the net and its constituent parts. I don't post in to every > > thread because a lot of the time I don't have anything worthwhile to add, > > but I appreciate reading: most of the contributions on this list are really > > insightful. > > > > The fact that people are posting meta threads like this is a good sign to > > me, I appreciate a community that can take a critical view of itself. If > > nettime does rap up, let me know where you all go, I'd like to talk more. :) > > > > John > > > > On 7 June 2019 18:38:46 BST, nettime mod squad <nett...@kein.org> wrote: > > > > Nettime is in bad shape, don't you think? > > > > It has still a lot of goodwill, and more generally there's renewed > > interest in formats of exchange and collective thinking that > > aren't defined by the logic of social media. But the dynamics that > > social media companies exploit are hardly limited to a handful of > > platforms. For example, nettime has its own 'influencers' -- a 1%, > > so to speak -- who generate the vast majority of list traffic. > > That's been true for years. The discussions they sustain may > > variously seem interesting or annoying, but either way they've > > become somewhat formulaic. An attentive reader knows more or less > > what to expect based solely the subject and the sender; and even > > meta-discussions about whether the list is dominated or by this or > > that tendency are largely dominated by the same few people. > > > > Some might argue the debates that have animated nettime over the > > last year -- the trajectories of postwar society, neoliberalism, > > the 'digital,' complexity, surveillance and big tech, Brexit, > > media and elections, Assange, even the Anthropocene in all its > > terrifying inclusiveness -- are the defining issues of the day. > > Maybe so. But if the nettime project had settled for a consensus > > model of the defining issues of the mid-'90s, it would never have > > gotten off the ground, and it certainly wouldn't exist almost 25 > > years later. The challenge, we think, is to maintain a space that > > attracts ill-defined ideas and uncertain issues -- things and > > not-things that don't quite exist yet and yet haven't been buried > > under torrents of authority and theory. > > > > So, what can we do? > > > > In the past, we've asked people to think about outreach -- say, > > inviting new people from new contexts. It seems like that's had > > limited success; but at a time when nettime has been limping > > along, it's hard to get excited about inviting people to join an > > environment so heavily defined by habit. We've also joked that > > shutting it down before it fades into complete senescence might be > > best. But that joke wasn't really funny, in part because it wasn't > > meant to be: it was a way of expressing serious concerns about the > > list's increasingly parochial status. > > > > Now, we have a simple proposal: let's switch roles. > > > > It goes like this: > > > > If you've posted more than others to the list in the last 60 or 90 > > or 120 or 180 days -- the math matters less than the spirit -- take > > a break. Let others define nettime, a space made up of nearly 5000 > > subscribers. > > > > If you haven't posted to the list -- say, because it seemed like > > your ideas, concerns, or whatever you want to share wouldn't fit > > with nettime's habits -- maybe that will change. > > > > Think of it as an un-grand experiment: a way to see what else > > might happen, who else might speak, what less familiar ideas, > > perspectives, or styles might spring up. Maybe the list will fade > > into silence, and we'll be left with a paradoxical object, a list > > composed *entirely* of lurkers -- not such a bad non-end for > > nettime. Or maybe not. There might be many ways to find out. For > > now, rather than the 1% debating how narrowly to define good > > manners, let's see if a different 'we' can change things. > > > > -- the mod squad (Ted and Felix) > > > > # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > > # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > > # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > > # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org > > # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: > > # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > > # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > > # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > > # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org > > # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: > > # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org > # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: > > > ------------------------------ > > # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > > End of nettime-l Digest, Vol 141, Issue 11 > ****************************************** > # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org > # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
