Geoffrey Goodell wrote: "So, I must ask: Is it possible that our pseudonymous contributor is deliberately seeking to exploit our respect for anonymous speech as a way to undermine our forum?"
I've met Dmitry, he is an actual person, well known in Berlin, involved in practices relevant to this list for many years. If I am not mistaken he works on open-source projects aligned with his ideals and those of his collaborators. I appreciate very much what Iain said about my own interventions, but I don't think it is worth using strong-arm tactics with one's peers. Dmitry has run a lot of very open and generous venues over the years (Stammtisch, etc), people appreciate that, I did when I went. Why don't we all just cool out? I am glad to bury the hatchet. It's also possible to simply not read what one has no patience for. onwards, Brian On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 12:23 PM Geoffrey Goodell <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear Iain, > > I'm not sure whether it adds anything to the discussion, but I've > experienced > this before. > > I am on a mailing list for alumni of a particular house at my undergraduate > university. One particular contributor to this list has unleashed (and > continues to do so) an unending stream of email nonsense, mostly in > support of > right-wing propaganda. The nonsense is not completely incoherent, and it > is > also not stateless, as one might expect to find if it were the output of a > comment-generating algorithm like this one: > > > https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/01/ai-powered-text-from-this-program-could-fool-the-government/ > > It carries arguments over long threads, days and even weeks at a time. So > it > seems to have been created by a real human. But nobody really knows > anything > about this person, or who he claims to be. We cannot find any records of > his > name in our alumni register, nor do any of us recognise his email address. > Yet, there he is still, subscribed as he must have managed somehow to do, > with > all traces of linkages to any university-run system having vanished years > ago. > > The propaganda itself is toxic. It is not entirely clear whether our > mailing > list subscriber is trying to convince us of its truth or simply trying to > warn > us of the existence of such arguments. Either way, he continues to defend > its > messages with sophistry, and he seems to have more than a bit of extra > time on > his hands to argue with other subscribers to the list. Every now and then, > people talk of forcing his removal, but for various logistical reasons this > seems not to be possible, and moreover the other people on the list want to > profess openness to debate. Frankly it reminds me of what had happened at > the > University of Cambridge last year: > > https://www.bbc.com/news/education-55246793 > > What is striking about the pseudonymous contributor on that mailing list is > that he keeps contributing, despite the discordance with the mood of the > group, > with voluminous messages that would surely take an ordinary human many > hours > per week to compose. > > So, I must ask: Is it possible that our pseudonymous contributor is > deliberately seeking to exploit our respect for anonymous speech as a way > to > undermine our forum? > > From a technical perspective, it is a form of 'poisoning', not unlike this > attack on keyservers: > > https://gist.github.com/rjhansen/67ab921ffb4084c865b3618d6955275f > > If we think this is what is going on, then I suggest that we ignore it. I > shall certainly do so going forward. Some of the more adventurous > contributors > to my other mailing list have chosen to respond to our relentless agitator > with > funny images. I'm not sure that is a good idea, mostly because higher list > traffic will invariably discourage some list members to unsubscribe. At > some > level, I suspect that this might be our relentless agitator's objective. > > A closing thought exercise: Who might pay to poison a forum like this, and > how > much would it cost? > > Best wishes -- > > Geoff > > On Mon, 18 Jan 2021 at 09:13:12AM -0800, Iain Boal wrote: > > Nettimers, > > > > I???ve no idea of the identity of the sinomane telecommunist > (???Kleiner') defiling this conversation, or their whereabouts, or their > condition (though the aggressive logorrhoea is suggestive). However, to > call Brian???s profound - and profoundly open, generous, and dialogical - > contributions to the discussion ???mccarthyist gatekeeping??? is either > wild self-satire or grounds for a strategic ???intervention' from our > moderators. Ted? > > > > IB > > > > > > On 18 Jan 2021, at 08:28, Dmytri Kleiner <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > On 2021-01-18 13:42, Felix Stalder wrote: > > > > > So, what exactly is the lesson that China holds for "us", that is, > > > cultural/knowledge workers > > > > While these questions hold promise, it feels to me like the precondition > is that cultural/knowledge workers in the west stop carrying water for US > intelligence and work on developing a respectful relationship with the > global left. > > > > I'm not sure that many who are here in the core realize how badly we are > viewed by our comrades abroad due in no small part to the cartoonish cold > war pejoratives we see here on this list all the time. > > > > I understand not knowing, it's hard to know what is said about us at MST > schools or among comrades in Kerala or in shop-floor meetings among Numsa > members, as we are most often not there. > > > > What I do not understand is not caring, and when this is mentioned, > reacting with white rage and mccarthyist gatekeeping and doubling down on > chauvinist denouncements, as we've seen from some contributors here. > > > > While asking "what lessons" can we learn from China is interesting, in > my view there are far more pressing questions. What role should we play as > tensions heighten with China? How do we deal with the fact that in many > cases progress of our comrades abroad are directly sabotaged by way of > aggression from our own countries? How do we deal with the fact that in > many cases workers here benefit from exploitation abroad, and so we have > differences in material interests that create obstacles to solidarity? > > > > What strategy can we pursue that addresses the challenges of worsening > social conditions at home, heightening international tensions and > aggression and the existential threat of climate change? > > > > Many of these questions are not new and where key areas of discussion in > the "old fashioned" position of proletarian internationalism elaborated on > in Stuttgart, Basel and Zimmerwald from 1907 to 1915, before the Russian > revolution led to the 3rd international era, with it's spy-vs-spy intrigue > in the bosom of which the western embedded left was distilled and > synthesized as a liberal strain, separate from and hostile to the global > left, branded "authoritarian" by the spin-doctors of Der St??rmer or der > Wochenspruch der NSDAP, who's greatest hits continue to be spun on the > Mighty Wurlitzer to irresistible effect among the meandering pundits in our > midst, who gladly dance to this beat. > > > > In my view, we mustn't dragonboat all the way to China to find the > lessons we need, we just need to stop feeling entitled to judge and > denounce the Chinese workers and deny their accomplishments. We must > understand that the struggle continues everywhere, there and here, and > trust them in their struggle, while we focus on our own. We only really > need mention China at all when confronting the propaganda used to justify > aggression against it by our own countries. We must turn our weapons on the > class enemy at home. > > > > In terms of lessons to take, we can find the lessons we need in the > legacy of the US Progressive Era right here in the imperial core, in the > work of Freire, and building upon the practices of Jane McAlevey, "deep > organizing." > > > > We don't need a "new left strategy" we need to stop the ever changing > iterations of the bullshit new left and its various derailments into > thirdwayism from sheepdogging our movements away from the tried and true > dialectical materialism that has been proven to work everywhere, among the > revolutionary workers of the global left, and has blossomed in art, > pedagogy, labour organizing, and even business management and design > practices. > > > > As has been advocated in this thread now many times, in my comments, in > Frank's comments, in William's comments, in Vincent's comments, etc. We > need a practice resident among and rooted in the efforts of the people > themselves facing concrete proglems, led by their own organic leaders, not > third party pundits, where we organize, try stuff, learn the results and > iterate forward, always building class power. > > > > This is the strategy we need, and as Jane McAlevey would note, there are > no shortcuts. > > > > > > -- > > Dmytri Kleiner > > @dmytri > > # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > > # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > > # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > > # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: [email protected] > > # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: > > > > > > # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > > # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > > # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > > # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: [email protected] > > # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: > # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: [email protected] > # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: >
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