Lyvim Xaphir wrote:
Hi, Lyvim. I am not familiar with the term "mule blinder perspective", but IOn Thu, 2003-01-16 at 09:33, Mike Larson wrote:Anne Wilson wrote:It's true that if it comes to the 'bitter end' then difficult decisions will have to be made, but I want to address the problem of where our money goes. Much play has been made of the fact that it will go to pay off old debts, as though that were a completely negative position. The reverse is the truth - debts mean interest payments and control by outsiders, both of which are very much against our interest. Only by getting rid of those debts will they have the money and control to pay for the employment of those people we value, and who will in the future provide us with the distros that we want to see.Sorry Anne, but I disagree. If they thought they could somehow pay off the old debts, they would not have filed for bankruptcy. The _fact_ is that they have filed.
Getting rid of those debts is crucial - make no mistake about it - and cannot therefore be seen as a waste of our money.
Anne
Money sent now will go to old debts and be a waste if you are trying to help Mandrake. The purpose of bankruptcy is to reorganize a potentially viable company. What probably will happen is that the reorganized company will have its prior debt wiped out or reorganized into new (and less valuable) debt and/or restructured equity (new stock.....which is different from the old, which will probably be wiped out and be worthless).
For example, see Worldcom. It has huge debts which will be settled for pennies on the dollar. The stock, once $65.00 is now at $.16, and probably not worth that. When WCOM emerges from bankruptcy, if it does, the debt will be mostly gone and a leaner company, with a chance to survive, will exist. This will not mean much to the old stock and bond holders, who lost their investments (life is not fair). But the company will continue to provide (fewer) jobs and their customers will be served.
So, save your money and send it to Mandrake later, if you want to help. Otherwise, you just help Mandrake debtors salvage a little more of their investments.
IANAL, so feel free to disagree,
Mike
Whew, what a mule blinder perspective.
assume it is a derogatory term for anyone that disagrees with you. I said
above "feel free to disagree", not "feel free to be insulting". However, often
the written word can be misinterperated and if I have done so here, I apologize.
:-)
To clarify my views: I like and use Mandrake and do think it will survive and
come out of this stronger. However, I will wait for the situation to settle out before
I send any more money to Mandrake.
>
Calm down Lyvim. It is OK to disagree with me, but I think it is unnecessaryWhere to start on this; guess I'll just pick a place. Like this:Money sent now will go to old debts and be a waste if you are trying to help Mandrake.Money that they recieve is controlled by a judge and HE has the say so about where it goes. One of the first places he looks at is the EMPLOYEE PAYCHECKS. So this statement is more than just false, it's a distortion of the facts.
to accuse me of distorting facts.
Lyvim, you sound like a stockholder, hoping your investment will rebound. I understand,This will not mean much to the old stock and bond holders, who lost their investments (life is not fair). But the company will continue to provide (fewer) jobs and their customers will be served.The stockholders losing money is contingent on two things: 1) Chapter 11 protection does not work and the company is liquidated. 2) Chapter 11 does work and the company's stocks never increase. Chances are that if the company does survive, then at some point the stocks are going to go back up. That means that the stockholders that have not sold out still stand a chance to profit.
and believe me, I have been there. I hope Mandrake does well and the stock does also.
My example was Worldcom and I doubt very much that their original stockholders
will ever regain even a small fraction of their prior value . I do not know what will
happen with Mandrake, nor am I familiar with the French version of bankruptcy the filed.
In the WCOM case, remaining employees continued to be paid. However,
money owed to laid off employees (severance packages, etc.) was considered
unsecured debt. The judge had to approve any such payments, and they were reduced
considerably.
Let's just keep our fingers crossed for Mandrake. I am sure we will learn more in the
near future. Then we can all make informed decisions.
Mike
--LX
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