On 12/7/2003 at 8:23 AM JoeHill wrote:

>Lanman and Lyvim have been slagging me for hours now, and all I
did
>was question his use of reply-to settings! 
>
>This is fucking ridiculous, I get called "bitch", I get
laboriously and
>thoroughly flamed, and *I'm* the one who gets criticised.
>
>I've really had just about enough of this place. I step out of
line an
>inch and people are all over me. Lanman behaves like a raving
madman and not a
>fuckin' peep of protest.
>
>Well, I'm not gonna do what Lyvim and Lanman want me to do, get
all pissy
>and run away, but I will never forget this. What applies for them,
applies for
>me. Fair is fair. From now on, if I say something someone doesn't
like, well
>ya can go stuff it.
>
>-- 
>JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813
>Registered Linux user #282046
>Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>"Behind every great fortune is a crime."
>-- Balzac

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

Joe; Sometime's it's not what you say, it's the way you say it.
That's what get's me pissed off. 
This list is a community, which means it full of diverse opinions
and perspectives, but also full of 
different situatiuons. The problem I'm having with my email is
real, regardless of what your ISTOP
using friend is aware of. As I mentioned earlier, I have never used
a Reply-To address on this list.
Ever. I know why it shouldn't be used. But instead of taking that
at face value, your first thought was 
to check and see if I was lying or not, and that's why you checked
with someone you know who uses
ISTOP. 

When you found that someone else with the same ISP has never had
this problem, you immediately
jumped to the conclusion that you were right, that I was lying and
you had to prove it to the list. 
Rather than simply accepting that things are not always equal, you
immediately went on the attack. 
For what? What could this possibly solve? Was this some form of
gratification or validation of 
something? Perhaps an attempt to feel superior? I can only guess.

The question here is, why bother at all? Why make the effort to
disprove what I had to say about my 
situation? I wasn't using the Reply-To just for kicks! And I
certainly wasn't using it just so I could piss 
off Joe Hill ! 

Almost everyone else on the list responded with patience,
understanding, or humour about it, but they 
also offered suggestions and ideas. You didn't. That's what I mean
about what you say and how you say 
it.
   
Then you not only challenged what I have no control over, but also
insulted a friend - Lyvim, when I was 
trying to pay him a compliment! And a humourous compliment at that!
It was only a signature for Pete's 
sake!

And you wonder how this could get personal?   

What did you expect? A pat on the back, and a "Well Done" ? This
list operates like a club. It's about
people who enjoy Linux, and while they may not enjoy the problems
that crop up, they do enjoy solving 
them ! But it's also somewhat casual, and easy-going. Come to the
list and get the latest on current events,
the latest flame war ( which I'm sorry to say involves you and I -
again! ), or the latest horror story about 
the which corporation is trying to screw which other corporation. 

Very few of the list-members will base their life on what is said
or done on this list. They simply enjoy 
being part of a community to which they have something to
contribute. Yes, there are also others that 
come here for help. In most cases, they get the help they need, and
also offer to help others. That's 
also what this community is all about.

But you seem to have forgotten the "Casual and Easy-Going" part.
Sure there are Netiquette guidelines.
And they're good guidelines. But they're ONLY guidelines. They do
not form some sort of Bible which we
must bow down to. They are simply guidelines to good manners on the
list. They are not the rules by which 
a community polices itself. 
 
You seem to take pleasure in trying to throw these guidelines into
people's faces every chance you get. 
Is it any wonder that you come across like a control freak! No
offense intended, but perhaps you should 
try to understand how your actions and words might be interpreted
by others on the list before you click 
that "Send/Recieve" button. 

Then to add to this, you insult people by essentially calling them
liars, and putting them down. Can you
please explain why? At least if it was making you feel like you're
superior to others I'd understand why.
I wouldn't agree, but I'd understand.

How can you be surprised at all the attacks you get from something
like this? You're track record on this
list is what makes many people take you the wrong way. That's why
you get attacked. 

I'm trying to understand what the big deal is here with you, and
I'm not getting it. That's probably another 
aspect of this problem that we're having. I'd like to solve it so
that we can get on with things. So let's see
if we can find a common ground and move on with the important
issues, shall we?

And let's put things in perspective - for the record.

You did not get attacked because you questioned my use of a
Reply-To address. You got attacked because 
you insulted a friend of mine, and because some time after I had
very politely responded to you with a full
explanation of the problem, you decided to check up on whether or
not I was telling the truth or not, and to 
come back to the list and call me a liar. What did it prove? What
did it solve? Nothing. It just showed your
true nature, and that's why you were attacked. 

So please don't try to gloss over the errors you made by putting
the blame elsewhere. You brought this on 
yourself, and the only thing you managed to prove is that you can
offend people. What a gift you have ! But 
when someone challenges you on something, you try to come across as
the wounded individual. You need to
remember that you are also responsible for the trouble and
discontent you sow.

So, don't talk about crossing the line. This whole mess got
personal a long time ago when you decided to insult
and attack Frankie. Now, instead of him, you try to attack me. And
like last time, I'm not interested in putting up
with your behaviour, not in the least! 

For example, when you spoke with this friend of yours that uses
ISTOP, did you find any solutions to the problem?
Did you bother top call ISTOP? If you do, ask for Samantha, Rob or
Phil. Their phone number is on the site.

Or was it just an attempt to prove me wrong? I suspect the
conversation consisted of a few general questions, and
went exactly the way you planned it . If I run into a situation
like this, I try to help, not to disprove someone else. I 
try to learn, not to find a reason to attack someone.

My goal is a workable solution, not to attack or challenge
someone's credibility. What was your reason for asking 
this friend ? If it was to help, it didn't work. You offered
absolutely no ideas or suggestions to solve the problem. 
And this time, that's when it became personal, and that's when you,
not me, you - Crossed the Line!

But you probably don't get it do you Joe? You're answer to this
email will be to attack again, instead of working out 
a solution. You know it, I know it, Lyvim knows it, hell, most of
the list knows it. There are times when you help, 
and make some damn good contributions to this list ! But like now,
there are also times when you decide to go on
the offensive, and the nature of your attacks is personal. Is it
any surprise that you get flamed?

You're either part of the solution or part of the problem Dude.
Make a choice, but make it soon. This is getting boring.

I've chosen to help, and to solve things. Can you make the
necessary distinction and do the same? 

Lanman


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