I do agree with most of Bryan is saying... what I think is the problem, is that open source software is Hyped to work the same or better than commercial software. that is where the frustration comes from.
On Thu, 2004-09-23 at 12:32, Bryan Phinney wrote: > On Thursday 23 September 2004 10:58, Lanman wrote: > > > Thanks Brian, but I've tried that script file about 10 times, I've used > > parts of the file at least 4 or 5 times, and it's only worked partially. > > I've also found 5 different sets of instructions written for Mandrake > > and Redhat (take your pick of version numbers), and each time had > > different results. > > Given that someone wrote it and it appears to work for them, you might > consider it a starting point and go through it line by line to see what they > are doing in the script and then try to apply it to your installation. I > know that is a lengthy process, however, there probably is a quicker way and > that is to hire someone who has done it before and have them do it. If you > go the cheap route, you should be prepared to expend some time and effort on > it. > > I don't mind trying to help out where I can but if I need to tell someone > exactly what to do, step by step, I am probably going to be sending them an > invoice after the fact. Others here might not feel the same way. If I were > already using the package and you were asking for assistance with specific > problems that I thought I could help with, I would try to help. If you waltz > in and say, I can't get something to work, can someone give me exact > instructions to make it work in my environment, with my installed software, > telling me exactly what to do, my first impulse is to turn on the timer for > my hourly bill rate. > > > My earlier comments about ease of installation refer to the fact that > > the installation instructions on the pages your mentioned are not > > written in a logical order, and the scripts don't fully complete a > > workable installation. > > I am not running OGO, however, my understanding is that it is an enterprise > level package that provides a large amount of functionality with many > components and tying to a large variety of background archictectures. My > expectation for such a package, especially one as new as OGO would be that it > would require some effort to integrate it into any particular environment. > If your needs are not so complex to warrant the use of such a package, there > are other options available. If your needs are such that you do need such a > complex package, you should be prepared to spend the time necessary to get it > to work. Another option would be to buy a package, pay for support and get > someone to do it for you. > > > As an example, they don't check to see if PostGreSQl is installed, don't > > create the database or add the user to PostGreSQL or for that matter > > don't detect and finsh configuration of Apache. > > They mention that Postgresql can be used as well as other types of SQL > databases. So, they don't assume postgresql on the off chance that you want > to use something else. The small part of installation instructions that I > read indicate that you must install postgresql and create the database > separately, or provide some other database. Detecting which version of > Apache, 2 or 1.3 and then properly configuring it including creating virtual > directory entries, setting access and getting past whatever security (within > Apache) you have or would desire would on the surface, appear to be complex > too. Add in whether you are going to do purely SSL access or allow open http > access. Throw in the diverse number of environments, flavors of Linux, > security, etc. and I can totally understand why a script that someone wrote > for themselves might not be totally working for you out of the box. > > > That may sound like a lot, but I've seen other install scripts work for > > effectively, such as the ones for webmin, macromedia flash, and adobe's > > acrobat reader. Even the installers for ATI and NVidia drivers are a bit > > more friendly than this one. > > Funny you mention that, since the most recent release of Nvidia drivers > installation script doesn't work with Mandrake. > > And install scripts for Microsoft Exchange might be easier than ogo as well. > That is very much totally beside the point. You are not working with those > packages or those developers, you are working with ogo. > > I totally understand someone getting frustrated when something doesn't work. > I also understand someone REQUESTING help. What I do not accept is the tone > that one takes when they EXPECT something to work or that if it doesn't work > for them, then there is something wrong with Linux or Open Source. > > Linux requires more effort than something that you buy from someone. That is > the nature of it. Comparing a free product that was given to you with a > product that earned the authors millions of dollars in revenue is simply not > a material comparison. Give me money and I have an incentive to make you > happy. Give me nothing, and my only incentive is what makes me happy. If > that also makes you happy, then great, if not, oh well. > > > IMHO, many Microsoft users and admins who consider switching from > > Windows to Linux in a production environment are going to expect > > software to install a bit easier than OGO does. > > And, IMHO, if they expect it to work the same, they should BUY a copy of a > distribution from Mandrake, Red Hat, IBM, Novell, etc. and pay for support to > get it properly installed and configured or expect to learn how to do it > themselves. Why is the bar for Linux immediately higher than for MS, Unix, > Apple? All of those products cost money and have R&D put into them supported > by their customers, one way or another. With Linux, you have to put > something into it as well. Besides bitching/griping because if that were the > same as currency, Linus would own the world by now. > > There is no such thing as a free lunch. And that is not a poor reflection on > Linux/OS, it is merely the reality of the world that Linux/OS resides in. > > > Considering that the script has to be run as root, and considering that > > Linux is a lot more powerful and flexible in what it can do, these > > problems shouldn't exist. > > Pray tell why not? I can buy a commercial software product in the Windows > world and have it fail to do something that I need it to do. Why would Linux > be any different? I can buy a commercial product for Windows and have the > installation fail because of conflicts with some other software in my > environment. Again, why would Linux be any different? My only recourse is > to return the software and get my money back. How is Linux any different? > > Linux is more powerful, flexible and that is why the problems exist. Because > the power and flexibility are partly a product of it not being a monolithic, > closed environment where everything is the same and controlled and can be > depended upon to be the same. You say flexibility, they say uncertainty. It > is, in reality, the same animal. It is both a boon and a curse. It creates > problems and can be used to solve problems as well. > > Give me a small, simple tool that requires no other components, software and I > can write an installation script that I guarantee will work on any Linux > platform in the world without any problem at all. Make the project more > complex, tie in other dependencies and you increase the potential problems > exponentially. > > > Also, the comercial version apparently has > > properly built scripts that set up a fully functional install so it > > seems strange that a modified version of that script isn't included with > > the GPL'ed version. > > GRRRRRRRR. Again. Gee, a company spent some time and effort to do something, > invested their energy,effort, resources and want compensation for it. So > what? GPL says that source is available when you use other GPL software. > They have made source available. Their install scripts do NOT include GPL > software so they are not REQUIRED to release it to the public. Do you have > some other copy of the GPL that says that an OS developer becomes an > indentured servant to you by virtue of you wanting his product? Perhaps you > know something that I don't. > > Are you being paid to spread FUD for proprietary software companies? Because > from my POV, it sounds an awful lot like the same old story. > > > Just my 2 cents. > > And mine. -- Scott R. Rineer M.C.S.A., M.C.S.E Network Administrator STABLER COMPANIES INC. 635 Lucknow Road Harrisburg, PA, USA 17110 Phone (717) 236-9307 X 248 Mobile (717) 571-9369 Fax (717) 236-1281 [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.stablercompaniesinc.com
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