I know John will never see MY reply, since i won't allow him to profit from
his collection of posts if they include quoting me, but since he elected to
continue this and seems to enjoy it....
I think I might owe Judith an apology, since I went on a tangnet over the use
of intuitive, when if I had given due consideration, I would have considered
it was the lake of the word "_more_" as in: "I find the Apple MORE intuitive
than winders" (not the exact quote, nor my feelings re; Mac -vs- winders). I
promise myself I will strive to include a comparison when using intuitive in
this context.
NEXT,
it is my feeling that I have ONE MAIN problem with both of your posts, and it
may be just the difference in the language between where we learned English
on the planet, but I perceive that you both often make statements of fact,
with out backup, or qualifiers, of what may well be your personal opinions.
John wrote, "The greatest problem in presenting alternative - not even better
- solutions to tasks is the cultural problem. "*My* way has to be better, or
this means I am wrong"." Ed asks, are YOU willing to consider yourself in
this statement? and COULD it possibly be that this is your educated opinion,
as opposed to empirically proven fact?
Judith wrote,
On Tuesday 31 July 2001 20:11, John Rigby wrote:
> Hi Judith,
>
> On Sun, 29 Jul 2001 08:48, you manipulated electrons to produce:
> > Sridhar wrote:
> > >> You mean it isn't "intuitive" for a Windos user? Then you are
> >
> > correct. For people who have been using *nix for a while this can
> > be very intuitive. <<
> >
> > Whoa! "Intuitive" has nothing to do with what OS someone knows how
> > to use. "Intuitive" means "known or perceived through intuition."
>
> *********** Aha! A "born" debater! :-)
>
> Most of my working life was spent trying to introduce Western
> Technology in Asia - at the USER level. The greatest problem in
> presenting alternative - not even better - solutions to tasks is the
> cultural problem. "*My* way has to be better, or this means I am
> wrong".
> To readily understand this point is simple: consider Religion! :-)
>
> However, INDUCEMENT to change is the highest requirement for rapidly
> overcoming the inbuilt habit/prejudice/bias of the student.
>
> In the case of Windows vs Linux, to really appreciate the differences
> requires comparing apples with apples (not Apples) and here we need
> to separate the application intention of the user:
> 1. Geek.
> 2. Tool user.
> In (1) there is utterly no question. Linux wins. The Internet runs
> on the stuff - despite Big Bill's massive efforts to sell the MS
> Server solutions. It is simply so superior that any true geek would
> become aware of it in a week or less - as happens.
>
> In (2) Mandrake is almost there! It is a problem of residual
> intention confusion that is the main outstanding difficulty.
> Pavarotti in an interview once said that he "admired the dedication
> of all those other Opera Singers who can practise so hard, hour after
> hour, day after day." When reminded of how much time he spent working
> on his music he said, " but I just sing!"
>
> We are getting there very quickly. It is astounding that it *IS*
> happening so quickly and efficiently. People tend to forget that the
> vast bulk of great work done on this System is done by individuals
> and small groups who somehow find the time and energy to get it all
> together and create a cohesion that we still have yet to see come out
> of Redmond. ( Mind you, there is a different intention inside
> Redmond.)
>
> Even more amazing is the fact that the people being called on to make
> the System "User Friendly", are not by instinct of the same
> mind/culture/Religion!
> As I keep saying - this exercise is massively cross-cultural. At one
> extreme are the Civilemes and Sridhars who actually LIKE the
> complexity and challenges, but they were born to it.
>
> At the other extreme is YHC, your humble correspondent, who an
> hundred years ago thought automatic gearboxes on autos was a
> blasphemy, but who sure learned to appreciate them in stop-start
> traffic jams, which were invented at the time, to sell automatic
> gearboxes....
>
> Now that I have a complex life out in the Cyberbog, the last thing I
> need to do is go catch a goose, yank out a tail feather and sharpen
> it and make some ink to create my daily bread. That ain't fun to me.
> Only the writing -as some of you have noticed - is, I looove the
> Biro.
>
> HOWEVER, to make this thing work is not that difficult if approached
> a little differently. It is only in the separation of the "cultures"
> and understanding of the requirements - or goals of the other, that
> it does simplify.
> Natural Mechanics.
> Drivers.
> The money is with the Drivers. We outnumber the mechanics by the same
> ratio of auto mechanics to drivers. The whole computer system is just
> a tool, nothing more. It is useful only to contact Grandma cheaply,
> SPAM each other and write the great novel of the century. We just
> want to use it to go from A to B.
>
> The requirement is simple: AUTOMATE IT. Give us this day our daily
> GUI and deliver us from the Command Line.
>
> Four-wheel Drive and double-reduction 6-speed gearboxes are great -
> on an Army vehicle, they are useless to a normal user as the Urban
> equivalent. Dangerous in an accident, extremely expensive to
> maintain, uncomfortable and no longer impress anyone - they all have
> one too.
>
> We only need a system that works as far as possible on MINIMUM
> CHOICES. 3 Automatic gears are fine! We only need to do repetitive
> and simple things.
> Mandrake only has to focus on on one simple zone to really fill a
> giant vacuum:
> K.I.S.
> EVERYTHING on the Desktop.
> No Server option on install.
>
> No Multi-desktops - Gnome *or* KDE whichever is "windowiest".
> An Email program - as close to O.E as possible.
> A REALLY good Wordprocessor - Doze-like interface
> (Star Office seems pretty close to workable now - except for font
> problems)
> THEN for later on, the AUTOMATIC updater/installer option - ON the
> Desktop!
>
> For "MIGRANTS" - "ESCAPEES", "REFUGEES" :
> A DEFAULT install Trial Win4Lin.
FOR YOU and IN YOUR OPINION, based on YOUR EXPERIANCE, with blinders and
filters OF YOUR SELECTION! these ARE NOT absolute truths as you have
expressed them, and you are possibly decieving your self to believe that you
are without failure in in your perceptions.
> Mandrake is still a long way from an "easy" transition - transitions
> are NEVER easy, as whole habit patterns have to be burned out and
> replaced.
> Then there is the problem of expectation! Remember, that's how Bill
> became a Billionaire!
> Mandrake is about the level of W95 in development terms, which is a
> great testimony to the people all over the world who are involved,
> mostly as part-time activists!
>
> But, for me, a very typical Driver with a long journey ahead and
> already running late, the logical solution seems to be Mandrake plus
> Win4Lin, especially for any business user and you have the best of
> both worlds.
>
> IN SUMMARY:
> My conclusion after reading thousands of messages and hands on
> experience in the last four distros and culminating in Mandrake8, is
> that I would not advise anyone attempting to run M8 or any other
> Distro without determining the following:
> 1. Are they a NEW Newby? No prior Doze experience
> 2. Are they "mechanically" inclined?
> 3. Are they a commercially serious user?
> 4. The age/equipment of the machine to install on.
>
> For:
> 1. Very much (as in Doze) need a live helper alongside. A local User
> Group is MANDATORY. *IF* the install worked, I see no more difficulty
> in learning M8 than Doze. I know of none personally that worked in
> one go.
>
> 2. Doing it for the "fun" of it as much as anything else. Not
> reliant on it for their daily bread. ( See 1., minus the live helper)
>
> 3. Preferably professionally installed -almost mandatory - if a
> Network and incorporating Win4Lin. (Same as Doze)
>
> 4. Be prepared to spend whatever money necessary to buy
> peripherals/components that are *known to work* with the Distro. Most
> workarounds are unstable and inefficient.
>
> From all that I have learned, it would appear that modern Distros
> like M8 won't break your Doze machine setup PROVIDED you do a
> "routine" auto-install.
> Therefore, I would say try and install the Opsys and hope that it
> worked. If it breaks down, it may take months, if ever, to get your
> components/peripherals working. I now consider for a business user
> that Win4Lin is almost mandatory.
> Despite very high-level aid given me, the solutions to my many
> problems have not been resolved as of this writing.
Of course, you might get the help you need if you bowed your head, admitted
you DON'T have the answers to the meaning of life, and asked the folks
willing to help instead of filtering out the advice since they won't allow
you to profit from their free and voluntary help.
> CAVEAT: This is not professional advice! The database is a very
> small derivation, but I consider, very representative.
> However the incentives to change are massive and growing.
Sorry for evceryone else whom reads this, since I know that John will not.
