> John will prepare a list of links to commercial tools in NHibernate
> ecosystem.
> What we would avoid is a "commercial" competition inside NH-Forge.
I think that's a good thing.
> To achieve that we will have an "aseptic" list of links with company-name
> and link to the homepage.
> no war for big-logo, no war for big-space, no war for opinions about which
> is the best...
> Peace and Love.
:)
What'd like to add, as I said earlier, is that you should look
through the eyes of a person who wants to use nhibernate but wants to hit
the floor running: where are the additional frameworks (for validation etc.)
found, so people can find what they want by simply browsing through a list
of tools /frameworks. (as it's not only about mapping: validation,
authorization etc., there are additional frameworks written for nhibernate
which are sometimes hard to find without spending a lot of time).
FB
>
> For now on this discussion will continue in NH-development list.
>
> Thanks to all.
>
> P.S I'm going to open the thread there
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 9:03 AM, Frans Bouma <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> > I think its reasonable consider creating some area on NHForge that
> helps
> > increase awareness of commercial offerings in the "NH space" so
> long as a
> > few things are made very clear:
> >
> > a) they are commercial offerings (logos/links not co-mingled with
> those of
> > companies that *support* NH directly)
>
>
> commercial offerings also support NH, and so much so, that I
> think
> without a pool of commercial tools, NH is going to be a marginal
> toolkit in
> the next few years. Mind you, NH is competing against a growing
> elephant in
> the room, called EF. Whatever one might thing of the quality of EF
> and what
> MS puts on the table in case of tooling, .NET developers all over
the
> world
> are exposed to EF in a lot of material provided by MS, be it
> articles,
> magazines, books, tools or frameworks.
>
> Currently the group of mature, supported ('alive') .NET o/r
> mappers
> is very small. Only one of them is open source: NHibernate. The rest
> is
> either commercial or from MS. My prediction is that within the years
> to
> come, what MS offers will become more and more mainstream for
> developers who
> want to use an O/R mapper. Without mature, supported ('alive') solid
> tooling, any other framework out there will keel over and lead a
> small life,
> if not die completely.
>
> As the lead developer of a commercial tool for O/R mapping, I
> can
> assure you, free software needs a hell of a lot of 'hands' to get a
> mature
> tool on the table, as it takes a tremendous amount of time to create
> proper
> tooling for these kind of frameworks. I'm sure the energy and will
is
> alive
> and kicking in the NH community, the point is: is a large group of
> developers willing to spend considerable time on this, for _years_?
I
> think
> that's unlikely. See for example the amount of time and effort
> already spend
> on the linq provider, which is still not ready: these kind of tools
> and
> frameworks take so much time to build, if people aren't investing a
> lot of
> time (and thus money!) into these tools/frameworks, they'll either
> never be
> shipped, shipped in an immature state or way too late.
>
> In the beginning of .NET, one could get away with a tool in
> 'shoddy'
> state and not proper support. Today, things are professionalized
now.
> A team
> doesn't want to lose time on crappy tools, shitty support or both,
> they'll
> move to the stuff which does work and which comes with full support.
> That's
> also why I think professional tooling for NHibernate is essential
for
> it to
> make it survive in the next few years.
>
>
> > b) *none* of these commercial offerings are in any way 'endorsed'
> by NH
>
>
> With this you mean, NH should promote free, open source tools
> instead of commercial ones? Or: it should keep everything at the
same
> level?
>
>
> > c) its made clear to everyone what the 'process' is for any other
/
> future
> > commercial entities to submit their own logos, etc. to this new
> area for
> > inclusion in the list (so that no vendor feels 'excluded'
> > from this area)
> >
> > There needs to be a balance here IMO between wanting to make
> potential NH
> > adopters aware of the available commercial offerings that can help
> make
> > their NH 'experience' better, smoother, (whatever!) and not having
> NHForge
> > become a marketing site for commercial NH tooling/add- ons.
>
>
> offering logo's, links is marketing. So if you create a
> 'tooling'
> page, you have to be aware the page is a marketing page: for tools
> it's
> great to be linked on the website most of the potential customers
> will go to
> eventually.
>
> It works both ways though: for NHibernate it's good to show
> that
> mature tools support the framework. Fabio enlisted some tools for
> mapping
> yesterday (11 or so). Most of them are actually already what I
> consider
> 'dead'. (dead==you won't invest time/effort in learning / using that
> tool
> for a multi-year, multi-dev project, as it's not actively maintained
> nor
> used very much). So it will take some work to keep the list up to
> date.
>
> It also boils down to who decides what though: in what
> direction
> will NHibernate and the tooling eco-system move towards? This too is
> important for people to invest time in. MS is re-creating a lot of
> what
> NHibernate and other O/R mapper frameworks like our own already
> offer, in a
> lot of cases with flaws all over the place, but that's not relevant
> now.
> What's relevant is that the story towards developers and teams
should
> be a
> 'one stop' place to get what you want, from framework, tools to add-
> ons and
> add-on frameworks, without having to search through a lot of
> (sometimes)
> out-dated wiki's, blogposts or sourceforge project pages.
>
>
> > If there was a totally separate 'area' (page, tab, whatever) that
> merely
> > listed such things (probably in alphabetical order or something
> that
> didn't
> > imply any kind of "ranking") and provided for a logo, title, and
> summary
> > description of the tool (along with a link to the vendor's product
> page) I
> > would have no issue with this. Its when it inadvertently makes it
> appear
> as
> > if the NH project 'endorses' one or more commercial products or
the
> > commercial vendors are co-mingled with commercial entities that
> have
> > provided support, tools, etc. directly to the project that I think
> we
> cross
> > a line that's a bad idea.
>
>
> Generally speaking: a company never invests something without
> expecting some return (charities aside ;)). A company which is
> willing to
> spend time (and thus money) on helping NHibernate forward, will
> expect
> something in return. If you are not willing to accept that, don't
> accept the
> help. Sure things are ran by volunteers, but that's not an excuse
> anymore:
> the rest isn't ran by volunteers and can spend all their time all
day
> long
> on the same things. To keep up with that, you sometimes have to make
> deals.
> Linux is largely developed by commercial developers nowadays,
> employed all
> by companies who rely heavily on linux. I.o.w. it's commercialized
to
> the
> last bit in every corner and I fear NHibernate to some extend will
> move
> towards such a system as well, where developers working on it or on
> the
> tooling, are employed to do that, either for 3rd party tools or
> directly on
> the framework.
>
> This will IMHO eventually lead to a more mature ecosystem
> where
> things will sometimes look a bit commercialized. This is inevitable.
> Like I
> said: having a list of tools on a page is marketing, telling people
> to use
> tool x or y IS marketing. Spending time on development of NHibernate
> or
> parts of it full time, payed by the employer, IS marketing: the
> employer/company expects to get something in return, be it support
> hours
> payed by NHibernate users, exposure of the company as a team of
> seasoned
> developers etc. I don't see why that's a bad thing, after all,
> NHibernate,
> the eco system arounds it and the users of it benefit.
>
> FB
>
>
> >
> > Just my two cents here.
> >
> > -Steve B.
> >
> > On Jul 16, 8:59 pm, Gareth <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > Shouldn't our focus (all of us) be to grow and promote the
entire
> > > NHibernate ecosystem? A stronger ecosystem benefits everyone.
> When
> > > managers and decision makers need to evaluate whether NHibernate
> is
> > > well supported and growing - what better way than to show that
> the
> > > core-development, community, tooling and commercial support are
> > > flourishing.
> > >
> > > Where can the entire NHibernate universe be promoted well? I
> would
> > > have thought that NHForge would be perfect - that's why we were
> all
> > > asked a while back to add links to NHForge on our websites,
which
> we
> > > did (http://www.slyce.com/Links/). It would be good to have all
> the
> > > links to tools (open-source and commercial) in one place. People
> have
> > > different needs - some only like open-source and won't touch
> > > commercial, others want what commercial tools offer. At the
> moment new
> > > users need to google for these things.
> > >
> > > Let's make it easier for people to adopt NHibernate.
> > >
> > > Gareth Hayter.
> > > Slyce Software
> >
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> Fabio Maulo
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