Well, way off topic, heat pumps are a step in a better direction than
expensive space heaters, particularly for kids in public housing.
Fiber wave-guides are low energy, too compared to all other wave guides
and better than free space as function of distance.
I don't think there is a physicist on the planet that would dispute
either statement, or who could design an experiment proving otherwise.
I'm doubtful there is any research monies being spent on increasing the
net energy return by burning fuels and releasing C02 to run electric
resistive space heaters. Evan Tesla's have heat pumps. Their cars would
go to near zero range in the NE winters if they used electric resistive
to heat the passenger cabins.
From https://heet.org/
3.1 Air-Source Heat Pumps
An air-source heat pump (ASHP) provides space
heating and cooling using outdoor air as a thermal
source. Typically, an ASHP is relatively inexpensive
to operate compared to traditional heating and
cooling equipment. This is because less energy is
required to move heat than it is to convert it from
a fuel source (e.g., the combustion of natural gas for
heating).
As mentioned earlier in this Chapter, ASHP
performance decreases as the difference between
ambient outdoor and indoor air temperatures
increase. In very cold climates there is also a risk of
frost forming on the outdoor components of the
ASHP system, which further increases the difference
between temperatures and decreases heating
efficiency.
5 U.S. Department of Energy, Air-Source Heat Pumps.
https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/heat-pump-systems/air-source-heat-pumps
Because of these issues, the use of ASHP systems
was once limited to warmer and more moderate
climates. However, improvements in heat pump
technology have made them a legitimate alternative
to fossil fuel space heating in colder regions such as
New England.5
Bob
assuming a single floor house with lose insulation in the attic
now look at a multi-story place where there isn't an attic, or one
with trusses so that moving around the attic is hard, or a SIP
cealing, cathedral cealings, etc.
but my initial comment on ROI and refitting cost was actually directed
at the proposal to make heat pump retrofits mandatory.
David Lang
On Wed, 18 Oct 2023, Robert McMahon wrote:
Retrofit is trivial. It's all in the attic. A romex splice is about
$53. Verticals aren't required.
Many states are mandating per each sale. I had to do this in Boston
historic district. No grandfather. My fire hurts the entire street
Bob
On Oct 18, 2023, 7:05 PM, at 7:05 PM, David Lang <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Wed, 18 Oct 2023, Robert McMahon wrote:
It's $428 per ac ceiling mount hardwired device, no verticals. It's
$503 per vertical for rg6 with patch n paint, internal walls only.
The asset value add for a rg6 jack is basically zero. The asset
value
add for whole home, life support capable, future proof, low power,
structured fiber & remote radio head is $2,857.
Staying ceiling mount helps a lot, no need for holes in the walls
and
no patch and paint.
All homes sold in the U.S. will have to do this per 2027 fire codes.
The smart ones will connect the fiber fronthaul to capture the
$2,857.
Home networking is second behind in unit laundry for landlords. Rent
increase for 100Gb/s point to point full duplex FiWi won't be known
until after the $100M NRE spend to create the radio sticks.
No, all NEW homes built will need it, old homes do not need to be
retrofitted.
This is normal for many things.
It's cheap to do this sort of thing when a house is built, it's FAR
more
expensive to retrofit a house.
David Lang
No security vulnerabilities compared to those found in Linux
computers. The radio stick is DSPs in transistors and optics. No
general purpose CPU to exploit.
https://www.scmagazine.com/news/thousands-of-devices-exposed-to-critical-cisco-ios-xe-software-bug
Bob
On Oct 18, 2023, 5:40 PM, at 5:40 PM, David Lang <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:
On being unleashed, I think this applies to consumer electronics
too.
Not
sure why HDMI class cables will be needed. WiFi 7 is spec'd at 16
MIMO radios
at 45Gb/s per front end module. Add some hw
compression/decompression, I
think it can carry even HDMI Utlra High Speed or 8K. And the
content
will
likely be coming from the cloud too, so the need for a short HDMI
cable kinda
goes away.
until you have a few people in an area all trying to do the same
thing,
not they
EACH need that much low-latency bandwith, and it just doesn't work
well.
Maybe I'm unique of being tired of having rats' nests of cables to
connect
things. My thoughts are no more cables other than structured fiber
and
structured AC which both are long lived, multiple decades or more,
and hence
are a one and done type of spend.
It's much more practical to go to a single USB-C cable (power,
video,
etc) than
it is to go completely wireless when you are stationary.
I'm not a fan of PLC, mixing power and comm. I've installed AFCI
circuit
breakers for all my family, including the in laws. These can
trigger
easily
when other signals are multiplexed.
There were so many things that went wrong in The Bronx where 11
people died
including children. An AFCI breaker would likely have prevented
that
fire.
Working auto door closers would have helped. Providing heat pumps
would have
helped too so kids didn't have to use electric resistive space
heaters which
are terrible by my judgment.
It's hard to believe that Notre Dame burned down too. We've got so
improvement to do on life support systems.
what's the retrofit cost vs the incrimental cost? (ROI timeframe),
that's
usually overlooked in these 'this technology is clearly better,
everyone should
be forced to switch to it' discussions.
(and don't get me started on Rent Control, common in NYC, which
discourages
investments by landlords)
David Lang
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Bronx_apartment_fire
Bob
Hi Bob,
On Oct 13, 2023, at 19:20, rjmcmahon <[email protected]>
wrote:
Hi Sebastian,
It was the ISP tech support over the phone. Trying to help
install
a home
network over the phone w/o a technician isn't easy.
[SM] Ah, okay. I would never even think about calling my ISP
when
considering changes to my home network (for one, I would rather
McGywer this, and also my ISP does not really offer that as a
servicedsdw), I guess different service offerings in different
countries.
In many U.S. states, smoke detectors are required to be no more
that 30'
apart, must be AC powered, battery backed up and must
communicate
with one
another. The smoke sensor needs to be replaced every ten years
max.
[SM] Intersting! Over here detectors are also mandatory (but no
distance or networking requirements, it is special rooms like bed
rooms that need to have one). Also over here no AC requirement.
It's a good place to install remote radio heads, or even full
blown
APs,
for both internet access points and for life support sensors.
[SM] I agree, and with an AC requirement powering such APs/radio
heads is not rocket science either, heck in a first iteration one
might even use PLC to bring data to the APs...
10G NRE spends stopped over a decade ago. Early adopters aren't
likely
going to wire 10G over copper in their homes.
[SM] Over here active 2.5 Gbps ethernet are just becoming cheap
enough for enthusiasts to switch over to, and 2.5 has the
advantage
of
operating well even over most cat5 wiring (few homes I know will
push
anywhere close to the typical 100m copper ethernet limit, most
will
be
fine with < 30m).
100G only goes 4 meters so copper really isn't an option for
future
proof
comm cable throughout buildings.
[SM] Indeed, but I am not 100% sure what use-case would justify
going
100Gbps in a typical home? Sure if one switches to fiber wiring
and
100Gbps is only marginally more expensive than 1 or 10 Gbps why
not?
Fiber to WiFi seems straight forward to me.
[SM] This might be related to your professional background
though?
;)
Just kidding, I think you are simply a few years ahead of the
rest
of
us, as you know what is in the pipeline.
People don't want to be leashed to plugs so the last meters have
to
be
wireless.
[SM] Yes and no. People did not bother about wiring office desks
or
even smart TVs, but smart phones and tablets are a different
kettle
of
fish, as are laptops, that might be operated wired on the desk
but
wireless in the rest of the house. I also note that more and more
laptops come without built in ethernet (personally I detest that,
an
rj45 jack is not that thick that a laptop body can not be planned
around that, leaving some more room for e.g. NVMe sockets or
simplify
cooling a bit, ultra-thin is IMHO not really in the end-users'
interest, but I digress).
We need to standardized to the extent that we can on one
wireless
tech
(similar to Ethernet for wired) and a proposal is to use 802.11
since
that's selling in volume, driven by mobile hand sets.
[SM] Sure 802.11 is likely to stay by virtue of being relatively
ubiquitous and by being generally already good enough for many
use
cases (with road-maps for tackling more demanding use-cases, and
I
very much include your fiwi proposal here).
Bob
Hi Bob,
On Oct 12, 2023, at 17:55, Robert McMahon via Nnagain
<[email protected]> wrote:
Hi David,
The vendors I know don't roll their own os code either. The
make
their
own release still mostly based from Linux and they aren't tied
to
the
openwrt release process.
I think GUIs on CPEs are the wrong direction. Consumer network
equipment
does best when it's plug and play. Consumers don't have all
the
skills
needed to manage an in home packet network that includes wifi.
[SM] That is both true, and (currently?) unachievable. To run
a
network connected to the internet securely requires to make a
number
of policy decisions trading-off the required/desired
connectivity
versus the cost in security (either cost as effort of
maintaining
security or cost in an increase in attack surface).
The in-side the home situation, has IMHO drastically improved
with
the availability of off-the-shelf mesh network gear from
commercial
vendors, with easy to follow instructions and/or apps to find
decent
AP placement.
For structured wiring, I would agree that requires both an
unusual
skill set (even though doing structured wiring itself is not
hard,
just doing it in a way that blends into an apartment without
signaling
DIY-ness is more involved).
I recently fixed a home network for my inlaws. It's a combo of
structured wire and WiFi APs. I purchased the latest equipment
from
Amazon vs use the ISP provided equipment. I can do this
reasonably well
because I'm familiar with the chips inside.
The online tech support started with trepidation as he was
concerned
that the home owner, i.e me, wasn't as skilled as the ISP
technicians.
He suggested we schedule that but I said we were good to go
w/o
one.
[SM] What "online tech support"? From the AP vendor or from
the
ISP?
The latter might have a script recommending ISP technicians
more
for
commercial considerations than technical ones...
He asked to speak to my father in law when we were all done.
He
told
him, "You're lucky to have a son in law that know what he's
doing. My
techs aren't as good, and I really liked working with him
too."
I say this not to brag, as many on this list could do the
equivalent,
but to show that we really need to train lots of technicians
on
things
like RF and structured wiring. Nobody should be "lucky" to get
a
quality
in home network. We're not lucky to have a flush toilet
anymore.
This
stuff is too important to rely on luck.
[SM] Mmmh, that got me thinking, maybe we should think about
always
running network wiring parallel to electric cables so each
power
socket could easily house an ethernet plug as well... (or one
per
room
to keep the cost lower and avoid overly much "dark" copper)?
Sort
of
put this into the building codes/best current practice
documents... (I
understand starting now, will still only solve the issue over
many
decades, but at least we would be making some inroads; and
speaking of
decades, maybe putting fiber there instead of copper might be a
more
future-oriented approach)?
Bob
On Oct 11, 2023, at 3:58 PM, David Lang <[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:
I don't know the numbers but a guess is that a majority of
SoCs
with
WiFi
radios aren't based on openwrt.
From what I've seen, the majority of APs out there are based
on
OpenWRT
or one
of the competing open projects, very few roll their own OS
from
scratch
I think many on this list use openwrt but
that may not be representative of the actuals. Also, the trend
is
less
sw in
a CPU forwarding plane and more hw, one day, linux at the CPEs
may not
be
needed at all (if we get to remote radio heads - though this
is
highly
speculative.)
that is countered by the trend to do more (fancier GUI, media
center,
etc) The
vendors all want to differentiate themselves, that's hard to
do
if it's
baked
into the chips
From my experience, sw is defined by the number & frequency of
commits,
and
of timeliness to issues more than a version number or compile
date. So
the
size and quality of the software staff can be informative.
I'm more interested in mfg node process then the mfg location
&
date as
the
node process gives an idea if the design is keeping up or not.
Chips
designed
in 2012 are woefully behind and consume too much energy and
generate too
much
heat. I think Intel provides this information on all its chips
as
an
example.
I'm far less concerned about the chips than the software.
Security holes
are far
more likely in the software than the chips. The chips may
limit
the max
performance of the devices, but the focus of this is on the
security,
not the
throughput or the power efficiency (I don't mind that extra
info,
but
what makes
some device unsafe to use isn't the age of the chips, but the
age
of the
software)
David Lang
Bob
On Wed, 11 Oct 2023, David Bray, PhD via Nnagain wrote:
There's also the concern about how do startups roll-out such a
label for
their tech in the early iteration phase? How do they afford to
do
the
extra
work for the label vs. a big company (does this become a
regulatory
moat?)
And let's say we have these labels. Will only consumers with
the
money
to
purchase the more expensive equipment that has more privacy
and
security
features buy that one - leaving those who cannot afford
privacy
and
security bad alternatives?
As far as security goes, I would argue that the easy answer is
to
ship
a current version of openwrt instead of a forked, ancient
version, and
get their changes submitted upstream (or at least maintained
against
upstream). It's a different paradigm than they are used to,
and
right
now the suppliers tend to also work with ancient versions of
openwrt,
but in all the companies that I have worked at, it's proven to
be
less
ongoing work (and far less risk) to keep up with current
versions
than
it is to stick with old versions and then do periodic 'big
jump'
upgrades.
it's like car maintinance, it seems easier to ignore your
tires,
brakes, and oil changes, but the minimal cost of maintaining
those
systems pays off in a big way over time
David Lang
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