that's where the reputation comes into play, if they are willing to burn a
trusted reputation to lie, you can't stop them, but trusted reputations take
time to build, so are not free.
this will take time for people to learn, so it's not a short-term win (short
term, I expect that there will be telltales that will show up through analysis,
although it make take inspection of the camera that supposedly took the picture
to find them all), but there is a need for trust, anonymity, and independence
from a centralized authority (needed for anonymity)
the novel Earthweb ( https://www.baen.com/earthweb-second-edition.html
https://www.amazon.com/Earthweb-Second-Mark-Stiegler-ebook/dp/B079BKBHJ2/ )
shows how such a reputation based system could work (for both legal and illegal
activities)
How do 'darkweb' type folks establish trust and avoid being burned? they have to
have some sort of reputation based system (even if informal)
David Lang
On Mon, 8 Jan 2024, David Bray, PhD wrote:
Yes - however folks who do bad things rarely sign that they did bad
things... so how do we tackle bad actors?
On Mon, Jan 8, 2024 at 9:30 PM David Lang <[email protected]> wrote:
On Mon, 8 Jan 2024, David Bray, PhD wrote:
Also signatures and the like only work for things where you actively
attest.
What if it's a supposed photo, video, or other claims that a person did
(or
did not do) something. Sadly we know eyewitness testimony actually is
replete with errors... which is why heretofore "roll the video tape"
(you're at least a Gen X'er or older if you recall video tapes) has been
what courts relied upon:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-it/
What do we do if that's now questioned? Watermarking of photos, audio,
and
videos can be overcome - and, sadly, may actually super-empower either
surveillance states or authoritarian states to "control" media. So free
and
pluralistic societies will be especially challenged here?
signing the images and then the reputation of the person doing the signing.
now, this doesn't solve the court problem, but there I would say there
needs to
be multiple sources in any case.
David Lang
On Mon, Jan 8, 2024 at 5:08 PM David Lang via Nnagain <
[email protected]> wrote:
signatures work, but how do you know what signatures to trust? the
current
approach of 'trust signatures where they have paid one of a few
companies'
is
not going to work. There will need to be some sort of decentralized
reputation
system where you can pick who you trust
Yes, some people will chose to trust people who feed them fakes. That is
better
than giving any one entity the ability to declare anything as "true,
don't
you
dare question it" (as we have seen over the last few years)
David Lang
On Mon, 8 Jan 2024, Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote:
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2024 15:17:12 -0500
From: Dave Taht via Nnagain <[email protected]>
To: Network Neutrality is back! Let´s make the technical aspects heard
this
time! <[email protected]>
Cc: Dave Taht <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [NNagain] The growing challenges of discerning authentic
vs.
inauthentic information and identity
Basically I am interested in the intersection between politics and the
internet in the context of this list, which is broader than the NN
issue. So I appreciate monday conversation starters like these.
In my case, I often have to revert to thinking about the present in
terms of what used to be science fiction. "Interface" - upon
cogitating about what the coming election will look like came to mind
- https://www.amazon.com/Interface-Stephen-Bury/dp/0553572407
When I first saw the deepfakes Pr0n phenomenon a few years ago, I had
my oh-ghu moment, as I realized once tools like that got into
everyone's hands the truth and authenticity of any form of media begin
to vanish, and the recent rise of the LLMs *almost* put the finish to
it. Thankfully the LLMs (so far) have a terrible tendency to
hallucinate which is often easily detectable, and overall, the
technoliterati have managed to expel really bad ideas like
crypto-grift, web3, and so on in the last few years. Web3 investment
is down 70% this year...
I now wish very much that the concept of "whuffie" existed in the real
world, but the flight to mastodon, twitter's addition of community
notes, most of newspapers moving to a for-pay model, and in general,
the innoculation of the populace at large to distrust everything they
learn on line is well underway which I find some comfort in.
Promoting widespread skepticism and disbelief are powerful tools, but
trying to find guidelines to what is actually truthful harder. For
example, I read wikipedia's talk page on everything controversial. Too
few do that. I recently sat through fox news with my mom, because her
blood pressure was too low, and it served well to "improve" that, and
me, take a lisinopril.
Life's just a ride, tho, you know?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_and_Out_in_the_Magic_Kingdom
On Wed, Jan 3, 2024 at 9:32 AM David Bray, PhD via Nnagain
<[email protected]> wrote:
Dear NNAgain’ers,
Today on a different listserv, I joined a discussion on what I sense
will be a pressing issue across multiple sectors in 2024. I recognize
this
is not NN-related and so if it isn’t of interest, I apologize in
advance.
However as most of us have technology background here, my sense is we
generally have a better sense of the looming issue than non-technical
folks
at the moment. Below I outline some of the contours of the evolving
problem
space, and invite each of you to share your thoughts as I sense the
diversity of perspectives here might help with brainstorming potential
solutions necessary for civil societies to continue:
Premise: We are at the precipice of an extended era where
inauthenticity vs. authenticity will be difficult to discern, that that
involves multiple forms of content including biometrics and more.
In isolated pockets, governments are becoming aware of this - however
it’s going to be really difficult for pluralistic societies like the
U.S.
where any of the Estates that traditionally would have a role to play in
verifying the authentic vs. inauthentic nature of something have had
public
trust in them as arbiters eroding. And it doesn’t help that both
politics
and advertisement rely on presenting things as 100% authentic when
they’re
often only somewhat so (or, to be more generous, mix facts with lots of
beliefs).
Not supporting autocracies, however they have a bit of a “home field”
advantage here because there is only one singular narrative - and anyone
who questions it can be fired/isolated, imprisoned/disappeared, or
killed/executed. Tools of such regimes, to include filtering,
censorship,
and repression - will be used to ensure only one narrative (authentic or
not, mostly likely the latter) is seen by a majority of their
population.
Pluralistic societies will have it much harder, and the last ten years
will
pale in comparison to the challenges of sensemaking in a world flooded
by
both media and mediums of questionable authenticity.
Back in 2019-2020, I did my darnest to connect Pablo and an additional
People-Centered Internet expert with Salesforce that has a lot of CRM
data
with the proposal that SF could provide a feature where, as part of the
CRM, “out of band” questions could be included to do some sort of
additional level of trust that the entity on the other end was who they
claimed to be. Unfortunately that pitch was overshadowed by larger
concerns
that SF’s software, give some of its features, could be misused in ways
not
intended by them (think about ways akin to Cambridge Analytica) and they
were trying to figure out how they could incorporate features to prevent
actors from misusing/abusing their software in ways not intended by
them as
a company.
2024 is going to be hard. Manipulation of what people appear to see,
hear, sense - and thus know - is becoming sadly easier.
Meanwhile understanding of the importance of triangulation,
triangulation, triangulation from different perspective to discern
authenticity vs. inauthenticity remains time-consuming and hard.
Perhaps we
need to consider standing up private sector Dun & Bradstreet-like
entities
for identity and other important adjudicatory functions - however that
doesn’t immediately solve the issue of how to help the public in a would
experiencing a flood of questionable content, information, and
identities?
And who “watches” the adjudicators?
David Bray, PhD Principal, LeadDoAdapt Ventures, Inc.
Loomis Innovation Council Co-Chair & Distinguished Fellow
Henry S. Stimson Center, Business Executives for National Security
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--
40 years of net history, a couple songs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9RGX6QFm5E
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
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