I agree. What was driving my thinking was that I was not buying that Dart on the server is a smart thing at the moment and ruminating on some things I'd need to see to agree that Dart is a smart move today. It's going to take a lot of politically sensitive moves on Google's part and I am not certain they quite know what Dart on the server means. For me, it means Mongoose.DART and Express.DART -- that would get my attention. A native MongoDB driver is just a start on what Gogle needs to do. In the meantime I looked at the code for Node 0.12 and my gosh already the --harmony- flags are looking pretty powerful. I can only imagine a couple more flags until there is --harmony-dart turns on the whole shebang. Also -- I looked at browserify and it does look like a global optimizer for JS of sorts. I was disappointed when I read that ES6 would not get library and module features -- now it looks like it will. So the next version of V8 from Google pretty much has to be feature complete. I will look into that soon enough. So I think Google's Polyfill and the raw talent of the community is making sure that Modules and Libraries come to ES6 -- and the global optimizatin pass before sending code down to client probably will become standard. so the module ordeal will be a thing of the past soon I think. Just an update on what this looks like. I dont think Node people are worried about --harmony-dart really. I left computing after learning Apache Java stuff. There is still a need for high powered App Servers it seems to me. I need to see what is going on there. What is an App Server in the modern JS sense -- Node can participate there no doubt. But new Express Components work is important and Mongoose middleware....I view Keystone as sort of a top-level master controller that helps me join mongoose an express. Node tooling is way ahead of Dart -- that is my conclusion and lots of work is still needed.
On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 2:10:58 AM UTC-8, greelgorke wrote: > > well. > > first: express and mongoose are not node, but node-based 3rd party libs. > Node.js has the advantage of the big and fast growing ecosystem of 3rd > party libs. This because of Javascript and Nodes module system. And NPM. > This i don't see in Dart environment. > > second: there is no competition. Node.js is an open source project, free > to use and to contribute. Noone force you to use it. noone has financial > interesst in domination or market share (though there are interests in > successfull further development and maintainance). There are other > Node-like tool already. Vertx on jvm, Luvit with lua, python and ruby has > it's on async i/o approaches. also you can use something different on top > of node, like Coffeescript. > > IF Google want to push Dart, they'll do, and nothing will happen with Node > itself. If Dart become eventually such a huge thing, then so be it. > > Am Dienstag, 4. März 2014 17:56:15 UTC+1 schrieb Pat Monardo: >> >> Good points! I have real concerns though. I dont think it is in nodejs's >> interest to be first mover on Dart. If I cared enough, I would be watching >> Chrome, certainly they need to define "V10" not Node. >> Node can rightly point allegience to JS not Dart. However if Google is >> the one talking up Dart on the Server then I think Node needs to be >> concerned. As a JS user, Node does need to worry about servicing *Me* or >> rather *My Apps*. I now lean toward expecting competition and I expect >> Google to easily dominate -- if they aren't blinkered. I mean, wow, for >> one person to be able to have such a dramatic impact on JS world. The >> competion being over services to JS app builders in toto, then I have >> issues with Node's approach to JS -- it is non-trivial requirement. I dont >> like being "Node-Locked' and I dont think Node's module system is the right >> approach. So Dart could easily win -- if they do the right thing. It seems >> to do the right thing they need to promise that Mongoose.DART and >> Express.DART will exist. So Google doesnt do that they wont win (easily) it >> seems They do have a Native MongoDB driver. So their next move is >> important. If they dont move the middleware, they will be chosing to >> compete with Node -- otherwise I dunno. I cant see into Google's >> plans...google doesnt even have to win -- maybe we need to get past that >> thinking. just do the right thing -- what is that? >> >> On Sunday, March 2, 2014 11:55:59 PM UTC-8, greelgorke wrote: >>> >>> Ryan Dahl built node.js as a tool for fast server implementation. since >>> v8 was the fastest at the time and it's open source, and it can be >>> embedded, he used that. nothing to do with google. Node is not about >>> languages. it is a tool for serverside js. I don't think Node will change >>> any time soon. And Dart still need wider adoption. i think Rick is right, >>> Dart will never replace js in the browser (unless all major browsers adopt >>> it natively or Google drives them out of market) so Dart will be a niche as >>> many other do. >>> >>> Node was never meant to go to Browsers, though there are tools and >>> platforms which targeting this. >>> >>> I, personlay, dont think Dart is worth the effort to consider. but >>> better profiling and monitoring, memory management and stability is >>> definitly things to do in node. >>> >>> Am Sonntag, 2. März 2014 15:41:51 UTC+1 schrieb Pat Monardo: >>>> >>>> Mad advice for future of NodeJS: NodeDART. The reasons are: >>>> 1. I have looked at both source repos. Dart is a much higher quality >>>> code than V8. >>>> 2. But not far enough away from V8 that Node couldnt fork it and call >>>> it V10 >>>> 3. Have a Long Beta cycle and incorporate V10 into NodeJS while staying >>>> at 0.10.x but name first release of Node Node V10 >>>> 4. People will think what is this new Node thing, it is at V10 must be >>>> ready for prime time >>>> 5. The JavaScript optimizations have to irresistable. You have to bring >>>> global code analysis and tree pruning to the Node ecosystem >>>> 6. Embrace the Client and use Google to bring your ecosystem into the >>>> client >>>> 7. Compete in a non-evil way with Google >>>> >>>> I dont know. I dont understand the origins of Node! Did Google promote >>>> V8 on the server or was that just something that happened? >>>> >>>> On Sunday, March 2, 2014 6:23:42 AM UTC-8, Pat Monardo wrote: >>>>> >>>>> http://browserify.org/ >>>>> >>>>> I knew that. But I am questioning that. I have not explored the above >>>>> link but I think that is the answer. I dont think it is in Node's >>>>> interest >>>>> to not "compete" in the so-called client / browser space. >>>>> But moving into Browser space is also in a sense moving into Dart >>>>> space. However, server world does not work that way. It is about sanity >>>>> and >>>>> it would require a lot for dart to make that type of platform appealing >>>>> to >>>>> confidence and availability. I think it is Google's interest to promote >>>>> true Dartification like AngularDART and such. Sure Dart will have a >>>>> MongoDB >>>>> client if it doesnt already. It is interesting to see how Node reacts to >>>>> dart -- I mean, Dart is as open source as V8....ummm will they reimport >>>>> next gen language vm? >>>>> >>>>> On Sunday, March 2, 2014 12:42:48 AM UTC-8, ajlopez wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know about Dart VM on the server. >>>>>> >>>>>> But you must know something: Express is bundle as Node.js package, >>>>>> and uses Node.js packages. All Node.js packages are strongly based on >>>>>> Node >>>>>> implementation of require('module') >>>>>> >>>>>> So, all Node ecosystem are Node package, that, in general, cannot run >>>>>> in other system that has no require function or a different >>>>>> implementation >>>>>> semantic. >>>>>> >>>>>> A interesting twist, is Meteor. It run a Node.js, but it modified the >>>>>> package system, to use another ecosystem (there are more details, like >>>>>> the >>>>>> use of fibers, but good enough for this discussion, you have a mixed of >>>>>> implementation and ideas) >>>>>> >>>>>> Then, to run Express on Dart VM, you must find a way to reproduce >>>>>> Node.js require semantic. >>>>>> >>>>>> Angel "Java" Lopez >>>>>> @ajlopez >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Mar 2, 2014 at 3:16 AM, Pat Monardo <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> This is sort of twisting my mind a bit. I could have Dart VM on the >>>>>>> server. OK. Dart could run Express? Why not? There is browserify? see, >>>>>>> that's twisting my head a bit. >>>>>>> I guess I can just try it ... ok well I am not good enough >>>>>>> ...lol..seriously ok I could run Express Keystone and Mongoose? in Dart >>>>>>> VM. >>>>>>> That machine optimizes JavaScript. >>>>>>> And Dart VM could interface into the whole "web of things" handling >>>>>>> everything. so it could move the web into a strange direction if it can >>>>>>> handle through its metaprogramming the entire distribution machinery of >>>>>>> proxies and whatever.... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Saturday, March 1, 2014 9:55:16 PM UTC-8, Pat Monardo wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hmm. OK. I need to make progress here. Lets say I am running >>>>>>>> KeystoneJS as a Mongoose client on one side and a Dart client on >>>>>>>> another. I >>>>>>>> can have Dart on the Server handling express render()s. >>>>>>>> so my view engine would be Dart. Dart can call into JS so I can run >>>>>>>> special purpose thingies in the Dart VM using Angular as View Control. >>>>>>>> Angular.Dart even hmm. >>>>>>>> OK so Jade could run in Dart under Angular Control if that makes >>>>>>>> sense. It sort of does because I dont like <> and even Angular weird >>>>>>>> ng- >>>>>>>> x-data- ng barf stuff. >>>>>>>> I can code pure Jade have Angular compile the Jade itself and >>>>>>>> handle sophisticated Dart->"Chome Web App" interface with smart >>>>>>>> proxies >>>>>>>> hiding the server/client bridge >>>>>>>> what do you think? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 1, 2014 7:38:58 PM UTC-8, Rick Waldron wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 1, 2014, Pat Monardo <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Struggling to understand these two technologies and I do enjoy >>>>>>>>>> both very much. >>>>>>>>>> My question is, do these guys compete? Is dart on the server >>>>>>>>>> going to be 'node-like' ? >>>>>>>>>> I admit I have been studying Angular more than Dart which is why >>>>>>>>>> I am interested by the talk recently (for me) of Dart on the server. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Generally speaking, Node.js is a platform for writing servers >>>>>>>>> and services in JavaScript. Angular is a framework for writing web >>>>>>>>> applications in JavaScript. Dart is a programming language that can >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> compiled to JavaScript. Dart purports to, but never will, replace >>>>>>>>> JavaScript in the browser. Dart on the server is a much smarter >>>>>>>>> strategy >>>>>>>>> for an emerging language and platform. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Learn them all, there is no reason no to. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Rick >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Job Board: http://jobs.nodejs.org/ >>>>>>>>>> Posting guidelines: https://github.com/joyent/ >>>>>>>>>> node/wiki/Mailing-List-Posting-Guidelines >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>>> Groups "nodejs" group. >>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nodejs?hl=en?hl=en >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "nodejs" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Job Board: http://jobs.nodejs.org/ >>>>>>> Posting guidelines: >>>>>>> https://github.com/joyent/node/wiki/Mailing-List-Posting-Guidelines >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "nodejs" group. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nodejs?hl=en?hl=en >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "nodejs" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- -- Job Board: http://jobs.nodejs.org/ Posting guidelines: https://github.com/joyent/node/wiki/Mailing-List-Posting-Guidelines You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "nodejs" group. 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