Hi Chris
   Gave a rather flippant reply to an important question earlier. Before
   answering it can I just point out that its Robert Whitehead with the
   Danelaw Band, not Whitelaw as I mistakenly called him  - oops, better
   get it right!!!
   Yes, where has that piper gone?
   I would like to think to a location where the music still demands hours
   of commitment, vast experience, good musicality but not the physical
   dexterity demanded by such a repertoire. Getting the notes out is
   challenge enough for old fingers, putting in that extra needed to keep
   them flowing, rhythmic and accurate, thereby doing the tunes justice is
   just a bridge too far these days. I've heard offerings in the past
   couple of years which fail on some if not all of these counts (your
   goodself excepted of course)  and it is quite educational in terms of
   making me stick to what I'm reasonably good at!
   Anthony

   --- On Fri, 13/3/09, Chris Ormston <ch...@chrisormston.com> wrote:

     From: Chris Ormston <ch...@chrisormston.com>
     Subject: [NSP] Re: Moving away from the First 30 tunes
     To: "'Anthony Robb'" <anth...@robbpipes.com>,
     tim.ro...@btconnect.com, "'NSP List'" <nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu>
     Date: Friday, 13 March, 2009, 7:52 AM

      Yes, I think Colin hit the nail on the head when he referred to
   people
      just getting on with it!  Nobody taught me to play like that, I
      absorbed it from those around me.  I couldn't really start to define
      exactly what I do.  Talking of absorbing from those around you, my
   own
      "misty-eyed" period is the 1970s at the Sallyport where a dapper
      gentleman would rattle through Peacock variation sets with swagger,
      confidence, lyricism and rippling technique.  Wonder where he is
   now??
      ;-)
      Chris
      From: Anthony Robb [mailto:[1]anth...@robbpipes.com]
      Sent: 12 March 2009 13:34
      To: [2]tim.ro...@btconnect.com; NSP List; Chris Ormston
      Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: Moving away from the First 30 tunes
      Hello Chris and all,
      Talking sense as usual bonny lad. You are absolutely right in that
   the
      tree trunk of the piping tradition is as you describe it but there
   are
      branches too. My reply to Tim R crossed with yours in the ether, but
   we
      are virtually saying the same thing. A couple of points though:
       1. When a piper does hit the rant groove it is absolutely
   delicious!
          Clean, crisp and stunning - you've done this yourself at the
   Bridge
          of Aln sessions and they rocked!
       2. There are inevitable similarities between the north
   Northumberland
          bands and those over the border especially in choice of line up,
          but the only band to follow the Shand type sound was Robert
          Whitelaw and the Danelaw Band. These were certainly popular but
   not
          the full story. Oh how I wish videos had been around as I
   watched
          Will Taylor dancing Morpeth Rant to John Daggs' Tillside Trio.
   It
          was as far removed from Scottish dance or music as any proud
          Northumbrian could wish
      As aye
      Anthony
        From: Chris Ormston <[3]ch...@chrisormston.com>
        Subject: [NSP] Re: Moving away from the First 30 tunes
        To: [4]tim.ro...@btconnect.com, "NSP List"
   <[5]...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
        Date: Thursday, 12 March, 2009, 11:50 AM
         Hi All,
         I agree with Anthony on the importance of recognising regional
      styles,
         and that dance and music go hand in hand.  I think it's important
   to
         remember, though, that the North Northumberland style is much
   more
      to
         do with Scottish country dance music, and was heavily influenced
   by
         Jimmy Shand. I admire and respect the music of the fiddlers and
      moothie
         players Anthony has cited, but see it as a separate tradition.
   The
         piping tradition is different, with a separate repertoire that
   shows
         off the pipes to their best, which, over the past couple of
         hundred years has developed a focus on listening/performance
   rather
         than dance. As my recent article in the NPS Magazine suggested,
   the
         piping tradition is a post-Industrial Revolution one, with its
      hotbed
         in South-East Northumberland.  The style of the preferred tunes
   in
      the
         North of the county does not always sit well on the pipes,
      particularly
         the "Burnt Potato" tunes which a sizeable number of people now
   think
         are Northumbrian.
         I'm not suggesting that there weren't pipers participating in the
   N
         Northumberland scene, but it's interesting that the pedigree (I
   hate
         that term - please suggest another) of the prominent pipers in
   the
         North of the county can be traced back to Newsham.  The music in
   the
         North seems to me to be a fiddle/accordeon tradition in which
   pipers
         participated rather than led.
         There are parallels in Ireland where uilleann pipers may join in
      with
         all sorts of reels , jigs etc in sessions, but the hard core
      repertoire
         is seen as the "big" 5-plus part piping jigs like frieze Britches
      and
         the Gold Ring.
         Discuss!!!
         Chris
         > Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 09:13:14 +0000
         > To: [1][6]...@cs.dartmouth.edu
         > From: [2][7]tim.ro...@btconnect.com
         > Subject: [NSP] Moving away from the First 30 tunes
         >
         > Hi Anthony,
         >
         > Obviously I don't have your knowledge and background of
      Northumbrian
         music,
         > so I don't have the same depth of feeling for these matters
   that
      you
         do. My
         > purpose in following the threads on this group is to get an
         understanding of
         > piping as it is, and was, from experienced people like you, and
      this
         is an
         > incredibly rich source of knowledge.
         > Because there is such a diverse range of opinions, often based
   on
         historical
         > or geographical connections, often deeply held, the picture is
      rich
         and
         > colourful. Long may that continue.
         >
         > You are perhaps correct that the direct relevance of masonry to
      the
         first 30
         > tunes is had to see, and maybe a new title was appropriate, but
   as
      a
         > "thread" of thought I felt it was pertinent, and indeed the
      mason's
         decision
         > was perhaps food for thought. I don't think there is any wish
   to
         gloss over
         > the heritage, just a lack of knowledge, which is why your
         contribution is
         > so valued.
         >
         > Re "many of these pieces were still
         > > being played by a strong cohort of traditional musicians in
      north
         > > Northumberland in a style which pleased them and fitted their
      needs
         > > extremely well."
         >
         > Do you feel, as you have used the past tense, that this is no
      longer
         so? Is
         > the (North?) "Northumbrian" style of playing lost apart from
         recordings? Has
         > it been subsumed by Tyneside influences? Which current players
   do
      you
         feel
         > best demonstrate that style? Is that style better/truer then
   other
         styles
         > currently in evidence? Should any style be preserved in aspic
   or
         should we
         > accept evolution, whilst treasuring, and being influenced by
      styles
         of the
         > past be they on vinyl or in mp3?
         >
         > Discuss.
         >
         > Tim
         > ----- Original Message -----
         > From: "Anthony Robb" <[3][8]anth...@robbpipes.com>
         > To: "NSP group" <[4][9]...@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Richard York"
         > <[5][10]rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk>
         > Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 6:20 AM
         > Subject: [NSP] Re: First 30 tunes
         >
         >
         > >
         > > Sorry to butt in folks, especially since I'm not sure what
   the
         exact
         > > context is! As the subject matter is the First 30 tunes the
         relevance
         > > of Victorian / Medieval masonry escapes me. I do get the
         impression,
         > > Richard, that you might be regarding these tunes as treasures
      from
         an
         > > earlier age. Let me reassure you that many of these pieces
   were
         still
         > > being played by a strong cohort of traditional musicians in
      north
         > > Northumberland in a style which pleased them and fitted their
      needs
         > > extremely well. It is the lack of appreciation of this and
   the
      fact
         > > that they played their "reels" with a phrasing that was
   neither
         march,
         > > polka or reel. This pulse fitted the dance step of choice,
   the
         Rant, so
         > > perfectly that they referred to the tunes themselves as
   rants.
         > > This was far more than a social pastime for the likes of Will
         Atkinson
         > > whose payment from "The Tanner Hops" made his, Bella's and
   their
      10
         > > bairns lives, much more bearable. It is the glossing over of
      this
         > > unique heritage that drives me to bring it to a wider
   audience.
      If
         you
         > > haven't already done so buy Will Atkinson's wonderful CD and
      you'll
         see
         > > what I mean.
         > > Regards
         > > Anthony
         > >
         > >
         > >
         > > --- On Wed, 11/3/09, Richard York
      <[6][11]rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk>
         wrote:
         > >
         > > From: Richard York <[7][12]rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk>
         > > Subject: [NSP] Re: First 30 tunes
         > > To: "NSP group" <[8][13]...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
         > > Date: Wednesday, 11 March, 2009, 8:48 PM
         > >
         > > In a way, that's the least important part of the story :)
         > > It struck me at the time what a parallel it was with our
      treatment
         of
         > > music which comes to us from before our time, or at least
   before
         deadly
         > > accurate sound recording, whether it's medieval or anything
      else.
         > > But to answer your question, Tim, if I remember aright, he
      treated
         > > them each variously according to how much was evident from
   the
         original
         > > form, how much damage the dear Victorians had done, and in
   what
         > > condition and how stable each was. Perhaps that's relevant
   too.
         > > Best wishes,
         > > Richard.
         > > tim rolls BT wrote:
         > > >
         > > >
         > > >
         > > >
         > > >
         > > >> Hi Richard,
         > > >>
         > > >> Don't leave us hanging........ what did he choose to do?
         > > >>
         > > >>
         > > >> Tim
         > > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard York"
         > > <[1][9][14]rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk>
         > > >> To: "NSP group" <[2][10][15]...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
         > > >> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 6:10 PM
         > > >> Subject: [NSP] Re: First 30 tunes
         > > >>
         > > >>
         > > >>>
         > > >>> Some years ago I met a man who was responsible for some
   work
      on
         the
         > > >>> musicians carvings in Beverley Minster, most famous of
      course
         > > being the
         > > >>> pipers.
         > > >>> His quandary was whether to simply clean them up as they
      were,
         or
         > > to
         > > >>> restore them to what the Victorians had imposed on them,
         mistakes
         > > and
         > > >>> all, or to try to restore them to what he thought the
      medieval
         > > carvers
         > > >>> had intended, though that last was now very impossible to
   do
         with
         > > any
         > > >>> certainty, given changes in their condition over time, so
      he'd
         be
         > > >>> imposing on them. And whatever he did would be right for
      some
         > > people,
         > > >>> wrong for others, and whatever he did they'd never be as
      they
         once
         > > used
         > > >>> to be.
         > > >>> Or he could simply leave them to fall to bits by
   themselves.
         > > >>>
         > > >>> Richard.
         > > >>>
         > > >>> Anthony Robb wrote:
         > > >>>>
         > > >>>> <...>
         > > >>>> There is much room for personal interpretation on top of
      this
         > > basic
         > > >>>> style difference. Letting people hear these differences
   is
         > > important.
         > > >>>> As for so-called "bad habits" these must surely be/have
      been
         > > pleasing
         > > >>>> to the players themselves at some point and are
   therefore
         valid
         > > in
         > > >>>> their own right even if others may find them
   displeasing.
         > > Copying these
         > > >>>> personal idiosyncracies is one thing, and each player
   can
         > > decide this
         > > >>>> for themselves, ignoring the regional accent completely
   is
         > > another
         > > >>>> thing altogether!
         > > >>>> I would say go for it Colin, a person with your
   background
      can
         > > not help
         > > >>>> but make a valuable contribution to the body of piping
         > > knowledge.
         > > >>>> As aye
         > > >>>> Anthony
         > > >>>>
         > > >>>>
         > > >>>
         > > >>>
         > > >>>
         > > >>> To get on or off this list see list information at
         > > >>>
      [3][11][16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
         > > >>
         > > >>
         > > >>
         > >

   --------------------------------------------------------------------
      ---
         > > ---------
         > > >>
         > > >>
         > > >>
         > > >> No virus found in this incoming message.
         > > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
         > > >> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 -
   Release
         Date:
         > > 03/11/09 08:28:00
         > > >>
         > > >
         > > >
         > > >
         > >
         > > --
         > >
         > > References
         > >
         > > 1.
         > >

   [12][17]http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rich...@lizards.for
   c
      e9.co.u
         k
         > > 2.
      [13][18]http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=...@cs.dartmouth
   .edu
         > > 3.
   [14][19]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
         > >
         >
         >
         >

   --------------------------------------------------------------------
      ---
         ---------
         >
         >
         >
         > No virus found in this incoming message.
         > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
         > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release
   Date:
         03/11/09
         > 08:28:00
         >
         >
         --
      --
   References
      1.
   [20]http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=...@cs.dartmouth.edu
      2.
   [21]http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tim.ro...@btconnect.com
      3.
   [22]http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=anth...@robbpipes.com
      4.
   [23]http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=...@cs.dartmouth.edu
      5.
   [24]http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rich...@lizards.force9.
   co.uk
      6.
   [25]http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rich...@lizards.force9.
   co.uk
      7.
   [26]http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rich...@lizards.force9.
   co.uk
      8.
   [27]http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=...@cs.dartmouth.edu
      9.
   [28]http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rich...@lizards.force9.
   co.uk
     10.
   [29]http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=...@cs.dartmouth.edu
     11. [30]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
     12.
   [31]http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rich...@lizards.force9.
   co.u
     13.
   [32]http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=...@cs.dartmouth.edu
     14. [33]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=anth...@robbpipes.com
   2. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tim.ro...@btconnect.com
   3. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ch...@chrisormston.com
   4. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tim.ro...@btconnect.com
   5. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   6. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   7. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tim.ro...@btconnect.com
   8. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=anth...@robbpipes.com
   9. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  10. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk
  11. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk
  12. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk
  13. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  14. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk
  15. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  17. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rich...@lizards.forc
  18. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  19. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  20. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  21. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tim.ro...@btconnect.com
  22. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=anth...@robbpipes.com
  23. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  24. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk
  25. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk
  26. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk
  27. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  28. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk
  29. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  30. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  31. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rich...@lizards.force9.co.u
  32. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  33. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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