Dnia Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 09:29:49AM +0000, John Haltiwanger napisał(a): > On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 10:57 PM, Marcin Borkowski > <mb...@atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl> wrote: > > Dnia Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 01:06:27PM +0000, John Haltiwanger > > napisał(a): > >> On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Marcin Borkowski > >> <mb...@atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl> wrote: > >> > Hi, > >> > > >> > what an interesting discussion! > >> > > >> > My personal point of view is that the so-called "political correctness" > >> > is something I actively fight against, by means of NOT using "they" or > >> > "Afroamericans" or other such strange inventions. These new words > >> > somehow remind me of Orwell's 1984... > >> > >> So what do you write instead? Negro? > > > > And what's wrong with "Negro"? AFAIK, it means "black", so it just > > describes the reality. This is what a word should do, right? And btw, > > the term "Afroamerican" doesn't really make much sense to me: what would > > you call a Negro, born in France, and living in Germany, when you wanted > > to distinguish him from a white man? (Please note that by "man", I mean > > "a human being of any sex";).) > > > > To be more serious: I accept that there might be a problem caused by the > > fact that I am not a native speaker of English. I suspect that somehow > > the neutral term "Negro" started being used in a derogatory fashion, and > > that it might be unpleasant to black people to be called Negroes. And > > that's why I usually say just "black people". > > So what is your issue here then? You are already working by the rules > I proposed: > > using the words that the group wishes to be called by (or at least not > using the words which they don't).
I guess the difference lies at least in one point: "black man" is something that *means* a black man. "Afroamerican" means nothing or something different. I prefer to use words in *their* meanings. And (though I am not sure about it at all) I think it might be the case that the introduction of "black people" instead of "Negroes" might have been more spontaneous, and "Afroamericans" seems to be supported by some governmental/lobbyist groups. > BTW, 'Negro' is definitely not a term to be used for referring to > black Americans. IIRC, it is a positive term in Brazil. The point is > to be aware of these things and to respect people's wishes regarding > them, rather than blithely pretending that any name you use should > automatically be fine simply because, well, YOU don't see the problem > with using the term Negro (for instance). The point is, is it the wishes of the people involved, or the wishes of some groups who *claim* to represent them? > >> 'Political correctness' can be onerous, and often contradictory to my > >> anti-authoritarian nature, but in the end it is not "the Man" who > >> issues requests for language changes so much as the marginalized > >> groups that take issue with existing phrasing. Afroamericans, for > >> instance, was deprecated sometime around that year 1984.. It all boils > >> down to whether you care about what the people concerned are saying, > >> which is why I note the author's position when I encounter it. (Rather > >> than throwing their paper away, ala Khaled). > > > > Well, "onerous" might not be the best word. "Scary" might be better. > > > > You see, I am quite convinced that trying to manipulate language "by > > hand" is a very bad idea. Maybe this is partly because I live in a > > former Communist country (Poland); we have seen such things in the past. > > Another reason maybe that it seems to me that one of the first groups to > > talk about "political correctness" (maybe even coining the phrase, I > > don't know) were feminists, who did so much more harm to women in > > general than we usually imagine. > > I understand your sensitivity vis a vis Regime Imposed language > tuning. You have got to be kidding me with that anti-feminist talk, > though. I'm not going to go there with you, especially after your > explanation below. Well, you don't have to. Maybe it would be a good idea to mention that I know some women who have the same opinion as me on feminism. > >> This is always a contentious issue when software/coder types are > >> involved, one of the serious reasons why female participation in IT > >> (in general) and FLoSS (in particular) are so low: many men in these > >> circles will not, or can not, give room to critical complaints. The > >> problem always originates in the person complaining---they need to be > >> less serious, no one around here cares so stfu, etc. This is a serious > >> issue, and this is probably one of the least contentious starting > >> points for encountering it. That theory would be thrown away because > >> it attempts to consciously address real gender inequalities is a > >> depressing thought. > > > > I am not sure that I understood your point, but I am quite convinced > > that the low percentage of women in mathematics or IT is caused > > primarily by the simple fact that an average female brain is not well > > fit for this particular purpose. (Of course, we all know notable > > exceptions. Also note that "better/worse fit for one particular > > purpose" is completely unrelated to "better/worse in general".) > > I'd laugh at this if it wasn't the same shit that's been going around > for years in the math/IT circles. Socialization is the cause behind > this, not natural differences in brain structure. If the society has > decided to accept and repeat this "fact" over and over, and men will > generally act as if it is true (pushing out females who make the > attempt), then it will come to "appear" as true. But that doesn't make > it any less BS. > > Put out some science for that one, dude. As I wrote a minute ago - I can't, and neither can you, I guess. Regards -- Marcin Borkowski (http://mbork.pl) ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________
