James,
Do it mate. I'm on the south coast, two kids, usual kinda life etc. I agree with everything you said particularly the respect within society (though with the demands put on everyone to generate tax it's hardly suprising no one has time or gives a damn). My misses and I are sorely tempted by Canada. If our parents weren't a factor then it would already been done. Olly From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 August 2008 16:23 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Yes emigration is definitely becoming my only hope here in the UK, what with the ever-increasing mortgage on my 2-bedroom semi with a square yard of garden, the rocketing price of food and beer, and the lack of respect in general day-to-day society. US, Canada or New Zealand sounds great, especially if I can do it before my (soon-to-be-arriving) twin children get particularly old. 2008/8/18 Oliver Marshall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I'm not sure what it's like on the other side of the great divide (I imagine that you all have big cars and all back gardens are acres in size) but I'm very surprised that so many people responded saying that they enjoyed their position, or did it for positive reasons. I was expecting to see a lot more of "I do it because I can't do anything else" etc. Certainly I know far more IT workers over here are massively over-worked, over stressed, hassled by bosses looking to use them to implement dictatorial technical working conditions and by users who are looking to blame them for not working as hard as they should. I, for one, am definitely off to the States, even if it's just for the sake of my aura. Olly From: Holstrom, Don [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 August 2008 15:49 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? I do it for love and money and responsibility. This is a second career for me, retired as a speechwriter 10 years ago. I have been a sysadmin (one-man-shop) for two different organizations ever since. I am now 60. I consider this a blue collar job with white collar working conditions and pay. I was always told I was a "good" writer, easy to understand, eminently speakable/readable. I took that as complimentary. It was easy for me to write, made lots of dough, able to retire at 50. Always had "gadgets" as an interest, as a hobbyist. When the opportunity arose, I took the job to work with 'puters fulltime. I love the work, well, not every minute, but 99% of the time. Average 50 hours a week, year round. But can take off when I need or simply want. When you are 60, it's not often you will sleep through the night, so I check the Museum's servers all the time. Hey, better than 98% of what's on the idiot box at that hour. When I wrote, I usually had one "boss." Now I consider every user at the Museum where I work as my boss. I never call them losers (well, except under my breath every so often, infrequently). I feel my job is to make sure all the systems are go and everyone has access. Full inclusion over exclusion. I want to make their jobs better. But I'm an old fart... From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 9:12 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? To add my two cents worth to this subject - I find a lot of the time I do extra hours for no reward is to make sure things run correctly. Years ago when I worked for a large outsourcer I was continually cleaning up the messes of IT systems that had been designed and run very poorly. Now I find even when I take the morning off, the people I work with still don't follow best practises that I document thoroughly for them, even down to little things like ensuring servers are in the right OUs, putting descriptions on AD objects, ensuring resources have the right naming convention, etc. Which means I always spend an extra couple of hours putting everything right for no reward. Maybe I could just hope these colleagues eventually get sacked and replaced by ones who listen a little more, but my boss is one of the worst offenders (especially at following change control procedures - the bane of my life) and I doubt that the slapdash attitude will change anytime soon. At least as long as they all know I am there to clean things up for them. 2008/8/18 Jon Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> That was one of 2 different ones I thought was correct but I did not want to point a finger incorrectly. The other was New Mexico but I was not sure which one it was or even if my memory was right. Jon On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 8:39 AM, Steve Kelsay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: It was Texas, where the definition of an Engineer is defined by law. Or that was the story USA Today printed. From: Jon Harris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 23:05 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Is it my memory going bad or wasn't Network Engineer a few years back in some state not allowed as a title as the state in question did not have a test to "Certify" someone with that knowledge? Don't ask me the state but I think it was in the south west some place. I could be wrong I am getting old and forgetful. Jon On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 10:56 PM, John Hornbuckle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: We certainly fall into the "professionals" category; it takes no fewer years to become a good technician as it does to become a good lawyer or accountant. I'm afraid that many of us put in white-collar hours for blue-collar pay, though. We've done informal surveys here asking what we all make. Perhaps just as interesting would be a survey asking what our BOSSES make. Part of the problem is a lack of official accreditation. Lawyers and accountants have to take certain actions in order to call themselves lawyers and accounts. But anyone can call themselves an IT guy. Sure, we have specialized certifications (Microsoft's, CompTIA's, etc.), but nothing at a higher level. Perhaps a more formalized definition of "Systems Engineer" ought to be codified. Maybe the issue is that this field is still in its infancy, and somewhere down the road things will change. I know there have been movements towards this in the past, but they don't seem to have picked up any steam. From: Durf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 10:48 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Jon, you raise a lot of great points here. I have to ask, aside from WHY we do it, what do we think we are? Are we more like lawyers or accountants - or more like electricians or plumbers? Are we white-collar professionals, or blue-collar hourly workers? If we are more like lawers, then what? I have a lawyer friend who regularly works 100+ hour weeks. She also collected a $250,000 bonus last year, on top of her $100,00 regular salary. By saing that "We're just geeks, and that's why we do it," aren't we kind of opening ourselves up for abuse by the employers who are aware of that and more than eager to exploit it? I'm sure a lot of lawyers are "law geeks" too, but they sure as heck seem to find ways to get compensated for their time. -- Durf On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 10:37 PM, Jon Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: What you say seems to ring true. I came over to being a computer person because I got tired of having my hands tied about fixing things I saw were wrong. When you start as a regulator of a highly regulated industry and see people lying to stop things that should not have been stopped and you can now look back and say very loudly "I told you so" and they were kind enough to actually document my telling them so at the time and for the reasons that are now apparent it feels kind of good but you also feel sad to know that you could not make yourself understood at the time. At the time I thought nothing of 80 to 120 hour weeks for months on end. That is until I got called into my boss's boss office and told I was taking 3 weeks off starting as soon as I could that day. They loved the work till it is done attitude but the State hated it on a whole as a lot of the workers could not build up any time off and I had at that point something like 12+ weeks of just Comp time not counting vacation days or sick time. Jon On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Kurt Buff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: We're geeks. That carries a lot of freight, but let's start with a few things I've noticed: 1) geeks tend to like to concentrate on problem solving, and work through problems to their own satisfaction, though not necessarily to completion. 2) geeks tend to devalue personal interaction on the job - they're more about getting the work done, rather than the office politics - this is related to the above, but not the same. 3) geeks tend to be more honest than most - a controversial point, I know, but I believe it to be true. This means they don't like to let others down, and will work to get things going longer than others. 4) geeks like to be seen as heroes - uber-competent, and able to save the day, when nobody else can. 5) geeks tend to underestimate how long any task will take, because the field of network/systems administration is still in its infancy, and metrics are very hard to come by - leave aside the fact that we're doing some of the most complex work in the work force. It's not that non-geeks don't have these traits, but that I've noticed a confluence of these traits in geeks, which seems to compel them to work the extra hours. I've oversimplified a lot of this, but it's a start... Kurt On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 11:05 AM, John Hornbuckle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I was recently talking to a technician who works for a company we sometimes > hire for projects. He's salaried, but working just 40 hours in a week is > pretty rare for him. Looking at the poll in another thread and how many of > us are basically on call 24x7x365 for no additional compensation, I have to > ask... Why? Why, as a profession, do we allow ourselves to be treated this > way? > > > > Is it that the pay is just so good that it's worth it? I know a few folks on > this list have indicated that they get compensated pretty well, but my sense > is that most of us just earn average pay and aren't living the high life. > I'm not really sure why. We have skills that are in high demand, and take > years to develop. Why are we selling ourselves short? > > > > Personally, my pay is just so-so. For the area I live in (poor, rural, and > with a low cost of living) it's decent, and I do work in the public sector > rather than private-that's always going to hit you win the wallet. But I > generally get to make up the extra time with time off, a long lunch, maybe > going in late or going home early. Plus I get vacation and sick leave that's > pretty generous by American standards, and participation in the state > retirement system. So all in all, I can't complain much. > > > > But I know a lot of people who work in the private sector for pay that's > only so-so, and regularly work 60-hour weeks. > > > > Why? > > > > > > > > John Hornbuckle > > MIS Department > > Taylor County School District > > www.taylor.k12.fl.us <http://www.taylor.k12.fl.us/> > > > > > > ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~ -- -------------- Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Give a fish a man, and he'll eat for weeks! ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~
