I should also say, that virtualizing storage doesn't really get compelling until you're running virtual servers. Don't get me wrong, it's nice. But so are virtualized servers. Putting them together is like mixing chocolate and peanut butter and geeting a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup. I had a $30,000 budget, I managed to get an EQ box on the cheap (thanks Andy Shook!) and came in well under budget. I was planning to implement HA, but in the end we decided against it. I don't need the instant failover, or rather our business doesn't, in the event of a physical server failure. I managed to come into my SAN and VMWare environment under budget, which made me look like a hero to my boss. John, that should be your goal. If you really do have a $30,000 budget, finding a way to do it cheaper and faster is going to make you a hero. My remaining nagging issue, is that I have a single point of failure on my storage array, which is where the DroboElite comes in.... On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:23 PM, Paul Hutchings <[email protected]>wrote:
> John, if you go out tomorrow and spend $30k on a SAN from anyone I think > you will regret it. > > Do what I said and try a few Virtual Appliance SAN's that let you turn a > couple of servers with DAS into a resilient SAN. > > Once you've spent a little time using some of the demo downloads under ESXi > you'll get a far better understanding of what a SAN or other shared storage > device can do than you will any amount of reading or listening to sales > people (who all have an obvious agenda). > > Paul > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Aldrich [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: 23 September 2010 18:16 > To: NT System Admin Issues > Subject: RE: SAN question > > Yeah... pretty much everyone I've talked to so far can sell me something > that'll meet the basic requirements, but then it comes down to things like > "Will I get better bang for the buck by using something with intelligence > to > expand the storage or will I do better if I just get a 'dumb' tray of > drives?" Questions like that are what is making this more difficult. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Hutchings [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 12:45 PM > To: NT System Admin Issues > Subject: RE: SAN question > > I still think the best thing you can do John is go buy a server. Get > something entry level but half-decent, stick ESXi on it and just download > and play with a shedload of storage virtual appliances. > > FreeNAS, OpenFilter, HP P4000 VSA, EMC Celerra to name but a few. > > I've actually just got back from a Dell tech day where one of their product > specialists was giving the "frame vs. module" differences and even he > acknowledged it's just not clear cut as each has pros and cons. > > IOPS is pretty simple, at a basic level you want to run performance monitor > and log the following counters to CSV: > > \\SERVER\PhysicalDisk(_Total)\Disk Reads/sec > \\SERVER\PhysicalDisk(_Total)\Disk Writes/sec > \\SERVER\PhysicalDisk(_Total)\Disk Transfers/sec > \\SERVER\PhysicalDisk(_Total)\Disk Read Bytes/sec > \\SERVER\PhysicalDisk(_Total)\Disk Write Bytes/sec > \\SERVER\PhysicalDisk(_Total)\Avg. Disk Bytes/Read > \\SERVER\PhysicalDisk(_Total)\Avg. Disk Bytes/Write > > Run it for at least 24 hours and have it log every 3 seconds or so and try > and make your loggin period represent typical usage. > > At the end of it all, use Excel and work out a percentile for the counter - > "\\SERVER\PhysicalDisk(_Total)\Disk Transfers/sec" - many vendors use 95th > percentile if you want to size for "normal usage", if you want to size for > performance go with 99th percentile (or of course even higher). > > In some ways I suspect you're in a similar situation to me in that we're > actively looking for a replacement SAN and there are several vendors and > models each of which would do what we need and not too far apart in price - > it's a lot more difficult to narrow them down when you're into "wooly" > things that are harder to measure like ROI and TCO (guess what, every > vendors says theirs will save you the most money) than when you can > actively > rule out vendors A, C and D because they don't do what you need. > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Aldrich [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: 23 September 2010 17:03 > To: NT System Admin Issues > Subject: RE: SAN question > > Thanks, Jonathan. I will attempt to do better "due diligence" in getting > educated better about SAN options in general. I've met so many different > resellers of various SANs, each of them pushing their own vendor that I'm > really confused. What I really need to find is someone without an axe to > grind who can help me figure out what my needs are and what storage method > would best suit my needs. > > > > From: Raper, Jonathan - Eagle [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 11:44 AM > To: NT System Admin Issues > Subject: RE: SAN question > > Not trying to be rude, John, but I would have to agree with the other > Jonathan. It's not that we don't want to help, we really do, but everyone > has to do some work on their own, and (at least on this subject), it does > not APPEAR that you have done enough homework about this BROAD topic yet to > be able to ask appropriate questions of this list. > > Once you've met with at least 3 vendors, and have gotten your questions > answered, if you still have a specific question on which you feel like > you're getting the runaround, then ask this list a targeted, specific > question about a particular feature or function. > > At that point, of framed appropriately, I'm willing to bet you'll get an > entirely different grade of response which will be useful to you, and > perhaps others. > > Best of luck, > Jonathan L. Raper, A+, MCSA, MCSE > Technology Coordinator > Eagle Physicians & Associates, PA > [email protected] > www.eaglemds.com > ________________________________________ > From: Jonathan Link [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 11:28 AM > To: NT System Admin Issues > Subject: Re: SAN question > > These aren't my questions, per se, so much as they need to be YOUR > questions. Jeff Steward also gave you a long list of questions, and you > attempted to answer them. > Here's the thing, this list is not a substitute for the work you need to do > yourself. You need to identify your needs, you need to ask and answer your > own questions. > > We, the list members, have been pushing you in this direction since you > started asking around. You're asking us to do your thinking for you, but > we > cannot do that, we are not in your position and, quite frankly, we have our > own problems to solve. If you go back and look at the posts of frequent > contributors to this list, you'll see requests from people who are in a jam > and need some instant advice because they're stuck on something, or they > may > have gotten turned around in their research and need to trackback and > confirm their understanding. These are the types of things a list is good > at solving. Filling in gaps in your skill set or educating you on a broad > technology segment is not. We are not in elementary school anymore. We're > asking you questions, not because we need to know the answers, but because > you need to ask and answer the questions. Note: if someone comes back with > a recommendation on doing something you don't know how to do, it isn't > really acceptible to say, I don't know how to do X, can you tell me? I > would venture to say you should learn to use Google to help fill in your > gaps. > > > > On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 10:58 AM, John Aldrich > <[email protected]> wrote: > To answer your questions in order: > 1) Failover capability would be very good to have. I need a minimum of two > controllers so that if one fails, at least we can run on the other until we > fix the first. That could also be handled by a dual-controller "head" unit. > So that brings single-node with dumb drive trays back equal with "smart" > trays. > 2) Scalability -- I firmly believe that your data WILL eventually grow to > match available disk space, so I'd like the ability to add space easily. > That being said, either method will work to add space. > > So far, my *MINIMUM* requirements are as follows: > 1) No single point of failure (Redundant power, redundant controllers, > RAID, > redundant Ethernet, etc.) > 2) Approximately 5 Tb of useable disk space (that should give us a little > breathing room once we start redirecting critical folders from users' > desktop machines and add in email) > 3) RAID 5 minimum to help prevent loss of data from drive failures. > 4) Under $30K > 5) Any replication needs to be done on the SAN and not involve software > (such as Backup Exec) on a server. > > Anything more than that is gravy. > > From: Jonathan Link [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 10:33 AM > To: NT System Admin Issues > Subject: Re: SAN question > > I think we have given you the benefit of our knowledge. > Several times even. > > What requirement do you have that would be met by additional controllers? > Failover capability? Scalability? Again, for like the third time, what > are > your requirements, that'll drive your analysis. > On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 10:16 AM, John Aldrich > <[email protected]> wrote: > Ok, guys. I'm trying to narrow down my many choices with regards to our > on-going search for a SAN manufacturer. I'd like your thoughts on the whole > question of adding more intelligence vs just adding more disks. i.e. the EQ > vs LeftHand models. > > I can see arguments to be made for both models. I'll tell you that, > initially, the SAN is going to be a glorified file server, however, we plan > on hosting our email data store on the SAN when we bring email in-house > later on. I've already verified with the email vendor that I hope to use > that this is not a problem, so that's a non-issue. Other than that, the > only > database we would store on the SAN would possibly be the database from our > Vipre install, although initially that would stay on the local storage. > > So, I'd like to see some discussions of the benefits of just adding a tray > of "dumb drives" or adding a complete controller along with the drives (a > la > LeftHand.) > > I just don't know enough about the benefits of each model to know what > would > work best for us. I'm hoping that you guys who are more experienced would > give me the benefit of your knowledge. > > > > Thanks, > John Aldrich > IT Manager, > Blueridge Carpet > 706-276-2001, Ext. 2233 > > > > > ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ > ~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~ > > --- > To manage subscriptions click here: > http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/ > or send an email to [email protected] > with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin > > ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ > ~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~ > > --- > To manage subscriptions click here: > http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/ > or send an email to [email protected] > with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin > > > ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ > ~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~ > > --- > To manage subscriptions click here: > http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/ > or send an email to [email protected] > with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin > > ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ > ~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~ > > --- > To manage subscriptions click here: > http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/ > or send an email to [email protected] > with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin > > ________________________________________ > Any medical information contained in this electronic message is > CONFIDENTIAL > and privileged. 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