You make my point for me - the government networks with valuable on
them *should* have air gaps separating them from untrusted networks.
They are the ones living in a fantasy, if they think that connecting
supposedly secure networks to the public Internet is anything but an
invitation to intrusion. Call it sneakernet or something else, a
separate network, on separate infrastructure, is exactly what is
called for in those cases.

On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 21:00, Don Ely <[email protected]> wrote:
> Kurt,
>
> If someone wants your data, they WILL get it.  It's not a matter of IF, it's
> a matter of WHEN.  People WANT the governments data, without absolute
> sneaker net, it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to protect completely.  There will
> always be a hole somewhere no matter how secure the environment is.
>
> It's all a matter of risk and the cost to mitigate the risk. There are
> fundamentally secure ways to accomplish what has been asked.  Is it a
> perfect solution?  Maybe not, but it is doable.
>
> You are a talented IT professional, but I think you may be living in the IT
> fantasy land...
>
> On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 8:41 PM, Kurt Buff <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 18:11, Ken Schaefer <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > Then you should turn of all your computers, encase them in concrete, and
>> > launch them into outer space - and into the Sun. That is the best way of
>> > stopping anyone compromising one of your machines.
>>
>> Got to love the straw man argument.
>>
>> > Having a non-domain joined SQL Server in your DMZ is far less secure
>> > than that.
>>
>> Than what? Launching it into the sun? You conveniently ignore that I
>> said "when you know there are better ways", and the
>>
>> > Hint: go and read some books on security first. *All* security is risk
>> > mitigation.
>> > For example: that's why we still have passwords that are only "x"
>> > characters long,
>> > rather than "x + 1" (where x is any number less than infinity).
>>
>> I have read security books, and keep up with Full Disclosure, FW
>> Wizards and several other lists, as well as monitoring isc.sans.org.
>>
>> And you exaggerate again. We have passwords that are 'x' characters
>> long (I tend to use 20+ character passphrases myself) because the
>> effort to crack them is, so far, infeasible, due to the lack of
>> rainbow tables of the size necessary to do so, and the lack of time to
>> brute force them before I change them. If firms (such as my own work,
>> I'll admit) are so foolish as to ignore this limit, then they will
>> likely suffer for it, and deserve to do so.
>>
>> > Everything in security is about:
>> > a) analysing what risks you face,
>> > b) working out what the likelihood of it eventuating
>> > c) working out the cost of the likelihood eventuating
>> > d) working out the cost of making the risk go away
>> > e) working out whether it's cost effective to implement (d) given
>> > (a)(b)(c)
>>
>> It's a b) that the risk mitigation wizards fail. Spectacularly. IMHO,
>> "risk mitigation" is a mantra that has gone way too far, in the
>> relentless pursuit of cost and effort savings. The above
>> recommendation to turn a firewall into a safe passage for intruders is
>> a prime example.
>>
>> > That is why a national government has a far more secure, cumbersome
>> > network
>> > than your average business. Because the risks are different.
>>
>> Oh, yeah - that's worked out well, hasn't it? I believe you have that
>> problem by the wrong end of the stick. National government networks
>> are more cumbersome, and not more secure, in the main. That's because
>> they're, wait for it, run by bureaucrats. They danced the risk
>> mitigation dance, and we got wikileaks, infected thumb drives, virus
>> infestations on supposedly secure networks, and all manner of
>> silliness.
>>
>> > That why we don't all blithely implement the same way of doing things.
>> > Because doing
>> > things *costs* money (whether that be products, convenience,
>> > productivity etc)
>>
>> And doing them intelligently costs less money than doing them stupidly.
>>
>> Kurt
>>
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