Hi all, I've been thinking about this for a while, and I'm consulting you guys in order to see how wrong I'm getting this. [example below]
When using the Mask operation under Merge to hold one image inside of another image where both images have an edge that's exactly the same, the edge that's the same is getting degraded - as in, it gets darker because of the multiplication that occurs. This happens a lot when working with full CG shots rather than CG over plate bg work. To get around this what I normally do is unpremult the image, min both mattes, then premult the result of the min with the RGB again. This produces the correct results - at least as far as the part of the edge that shouldn't change. Feels to me like this should be made simpler, no? Am I wrong about this? In the example below you can see what I mean. The antialiased edge that both shapes share gets darker after the Merge. Thanks all. R Paste this into your DAG: set cut_paste_input [stack 0] version 6.3 v1 RotoPaint { inputs 0 curves {AnimTree: "" { Version: 1.2 Flag: 0 RootNode: 1 Node: { NodeName: "Root" { Flag: 512 NodeType: 1 Transform: 0 0 S 0 0 S 0 0 S 0 0 S 0 1 S 0 1 S 0 0 S 0 1024 S 0 778 NumOfAttributes: 11 "vis" S 0 1 "opc" S 0 1 "mbo" S 0 1 "mb" S 0 1 "mbs" S 0 0.5 "fo" S 0 1 "fx" S 0 0 "fy" S 0 0 "ff" S 0 1 "ft" S 0 0 "pt" S 0 0 } NumOfChildren: 1 Node: { NodeName: "Bezier1" { Flag: 576 NodeType: 3 CurveGroup: "" { Transform: 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 1 S 1 1 1 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 885 S 1 1 936 Flag: 0 NumOfCubicCurves: 2 CubicCurve: "" { Type: 0 Flag: 8192 Dim: 2 NumOfPoints: 18 0 S 1 1 40 S 1 1 15 0 0 S 1 1 600 S 1 1 1195 0 0 S 1 1 -40 S 1 1 -15 0 0 S 1 1 -10 S 1 1 15 0 0 S 1 1 340 S 1 1 830 0 0 S 1 1 5 S 1 1 -7.5 0 0 S 1 1 -176.25 S 1 1 69.375 0 0 S 1 1 520 S 1 1 350 0 0 S 1 1 176.25 S 1 1 -69.375 0 0 S 1 1 -20 S 1 1 -20 0 0 S 1 1 1070 S 1 1 565 0 0 S 1 1 40 S 1 1 40 0 0 S 1 1 15 S 1 1 -25 0 0 S 1 1 1390 S 1 1 1000 0 0 S 1 1 -15 S 1 1 25 0 0 S 1 1 25 S 1 1 -10 0 0 S 1 1 795 S 1 1 800 0 0 S 1 1 -25 S 1 1 10 0 } CubicCurve: "" { Type: 0 Flag: 8192 Dim: 2 NumOfPoints: 18 0 S 1 1 40 S 1 1 15 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 -40 S 1 1 -15 0 0 S 1 1 -10 S 1 1 15 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 5 S 1 1 -7.5 0 0 S 1 1 -176.25 S 1 1 69.375 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 176.25 S 1 1 -69.375 0 0 S 1 1 -20 S 1 1 -20 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 40 S 1 1 40 0 0 S 1 1 15 S 1 1 -25 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 -15 S 1 1 25 0 0 S 1 1 25 S 1 1 -10 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 -25 S 1 1 10 0 } NumOfAttributes: 44 "vis" S 0 1 "r" S 0 1 "g" S 0 1 "b" S 0 1 "a" S 0 1 "ro" S 0 0 "go" S 0 0 "bo" S 0 0 "ao" S 0 0 "opc" S 0 1 "bm" S 0 0 "inv" S 0 0 "mbo" S 0 0 "mb" S 0 1 "mbs" S 0 0.5 "mbsot" S 0 0 "mbso" S 0 0 "fo" S 0 1 "fx" S 0 0 "fy" S 0 0 "ff" S 0 1 "ft" S 0 0 "src" S 0 0 "stx" S 0 0 "sty" S 0 0 "str" S 0 0 "sr" S 0 0 "ssx" S 0 1 "ssy" S 0 1 "ss" S 0 0 "spx" S 0 1024 "spy" S 0 778 "stot" S 0 0 "sto" S 0 0 "sv" S 0 0 "sf" S 0 1 "sb" S 0 1 "nv" S 0 1 "view1" S 0 1 "ltn" S 0 1 "ltm" S 0 1 "ltt" S 0 0 "tt" S 0 4 "pt" S 0 0 } } NumOfChildren: 0 } } } } toolbox {selectAll { { selectAll ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 } { createBezier ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 tt 4 } { createBSpline ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { createEllipse ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { createRectangle ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { brush ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { eraser src 2 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { clone src 1 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { reveal src 3 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { dodge src 1 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { burn src 1 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { blur src 1 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { sharpen src 1 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { smear src 1 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } } } toolbar_brush_hardness 0.200000003 toolbar_lifetime_type all toolbar_source_transform_scale {1 1} toolbar_source_transform_center {320 240} colorOverlay 0 lifetime_type "all frames" motionblur_shutter_offset_type centred source_black_outside true createNewTrack {{-1} "-1\t(none)\t-1" "1000\tNew Track Layer\t1000"} name RotoPaint1 selected true xpos -306 ypos -156 } set N221a3540 [stack 0] Unpremult { name Unpremult1 selected true xpos -280 ypos -82 } set N2962c380 [stack 0] push $cut_paste_input RotoPaint { curves {AnimTree: "" { Version: 1.2 Flag: 0 RootNode: 1 Node: { NodeName: "Root" { Flag: 512 NodeType: 1 Transform: 0 0 S 0 0 S 0 0 S 0 0 S 0 1 S 0 1 S 0 0 S 0 1024 S 0 778 NumOfAttributes: 11 "vis" S 0 1 "opc" S 0 1 "mbo" S 0 1 "mb" S 0 1 "mbs" S 0 0.5 "fo" S 0 1 "fx" S 0 0 "fy" S 0 0 "ff" S 0 1 "ft" S 0 0 "pt" S 0 0 } NumOfChildren: 1 Node: { NodeName: "Bezier1" { Flag: 576 NodeType: 3 CurveGroup: "" { Transform: 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 1 S 1 1 1 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 885 S 1 1 936 Flag: 0 NumOfCubicCurves: 2 CubicCurve: "" { Type: 0 Flag: 8192 Dim: 2 NumOfPoints: 15 0 S 1 1 40 S 1 1 15 0 0 S 1 1 600 S 1 1 1195 0 0 S 1 1 -40 S 1 1 -15 0 0 S 1 1 -10 S 1 1 15 0 0 S 1 1 340 S 1 1 830 0 0 S 1 1 10 S 1 1 -15 0 0 S 1 1 -40 S 1 1 -40 0 0 S 1 1 1070 S 1 1 565 0 0 S 1 1 40 S 1 1 40 0 0 S 1 1 15 S 1 1 -25 0 0 S 1 1 1390 S 1 1 1000 0 0 S 1 1 -15 S 1 1 25 0 0 S 1 1 25 S 1 1 -10 0 0 S 1 1 1025 S 1 1 1090 0 0 S 1 1 -25 S 1 1 10 0 } CubicCurve: "" { Type: 0 Flag: 8192 Dim: 2 NumOfPoints: 15 0 S 1 1 40 S 1 1 15 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 -40 S 1 1 -15 0 0 S 1 1 -10 S 1 1 15 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 10 S 1 1 -15 0 0 S 1 1 -40 S 1 1 -40 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 40 S 1 1 40 0 0 S 1 1 15 S 1 1 -25 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 -15 S 1 1 25 0 0 S 1 1 25 S 1 1 -10 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 -25 S 1 1 10 0 } NumOfAttributes: 44 "vis" S 0 1 "r" S 0 1 "g" S 0 1 "b" S 0 1 "a" S 0 1 "ro" S 0 0 "go" S 0 0 "bo" S 0 0 "ao" S 0 0 "opc" S 0 1 "bm" S 0 0 "inv" S 0 0 "mbo" S 0 0 "mb" S 0 1 "mbs" S 0 0.5 "mbsot" S 0 0 "mbso" S 0 0 "fo" S 0 1 "fx" S 0 0 "fy" S 0 0 "ff" S 0 1 "ft" S 0 0 "src" S 0 0 "stx" S 0 0 "sty" S 0 0 "str" S 0 0 "sr" S 0 0 "ssx" S 0 1 "ssy" S 0 1 "ss" S 0 0 "spx" S 0 1024 "spy" S 0 778 "stot" S 0 0 "sto" S 0 0 "sv" S 0 0 "sf" S 0 1 "sb" S 0 1 "nv" S 0 1 "view1" S 0 1 "ltn" S 0 1 "ltm" S 0 1 "ltt" S 0 0 "tt" S 0 4 "pt" S 0 0 } } NumOfChildren: 0 } } } } toolbox {selectAll { { selectAll ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 } { createBezier ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 tt 4 } { createBSpline ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { createEllipse ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { createRectangle ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { brush ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { eraser src 2 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { clone src 1 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { reveal src 3 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { dodge src 1 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { burn src 1 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { blur src 1 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { sharpen src 1 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { smear src 1 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } } } toolbar_brush_hardness 0.200000003 toolbar_lifetime_type all toolbar_source_transform_scale {1 1} toolbar_source_transform_center {320 240} colorOverlay 0 lifetime_type "all frames" motionblur_shutter_offset_type centred source_black_outside true createNewTrack {{-1} "-1\t(none)\t-1" "1000\tNew Track Layer\t1000"} name RotoPaint2 selected true xpos -54 ypos -148 } set N245233b0 [stack 0] Merge2 { inputs 2 operation min name Merge2 selected true xpos -203 ypos -39 } push $N2962c380 ShuffleCopy { inputs 2 name ShuffleCopy1 selected true xpos -280 } Premult { name Premult1 selected true xpos -280 ypos 24 } Text { message "zoom in here\nand compare" font "/Library/Fonts/Trebuchet MS.ttf" yjustify center box {512 389 1536 1167} translate {866 -124} center {1024 778} color {1 0 0 1} name Text2 selected true xpos -280 ypos 48 } RotoPaint { curves {AnimTree: "" { Version: 1.2 Flag: 0 RootNode: 1 Node: { NodeName: "Root" { Flag: 512 NodeType: 1 Transform: 0 0 S 0 0 S 0 0 S 0 0 S 0 1 S 0 1 S 0 0 S 0 1024 S 0 778 NumOfAttributes: 11 "vis" S 0 1 "opc" S 0 1 "mbo" S 0 1 "mb" S 0 1 "mbs" S 0 0.5 "fo" S 0 1 "fx" S 0 0 "fy" S 0 0 "ff" S 0 1 "ft" S 0 0 "pt" S 0 0 } NumOfChildren: 1 Node: { NodeName: "Bezier1" { Flag: 576 NodeType: 3 CurveGroup: "" { Transform: 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 1 S 1 1 1 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 1210.91 S 1 1 743.386 Flag: 0 NumOfCubicCurves: 2 CubicCurve: "" { Type: 0 Flag: 8192 Dim: 2 NumOfPoints: 21 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 1263.54 S 1 1 665.618 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 1214 S 1 1 650.217 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 1262.64 S 1 1 634.482 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 1262.64 S 1 1 644.86 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 1351.8 S 1 1 642.517 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 1351.8 S 1 1 654.235 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 1264.89 S 1 1 655.574 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 } CubicCurve: "" { Type: 0 Flag: 8192 Dim: 2 NumOfPoints: 21 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 } NumOfAttributes: 44 "vis" S 0 1 "r" S 0 1 "g" S 0 0 "b" S 0 0 "a" S 0 1 "ro" S 0 0 "go" S 0 0 "bo" S 0 0 "ao" S 0 0 "opc" S 0 1 "bm" S 0 0 "inv" S 0 0 "mbo" S 0 0 "mb" S 0 1 "mbs" S 0 0.5 "mbsot" S 0 0 "mbso" S 0 0 "fo" S 0 1 "fx" S 0 0 "fy" S 0 0 "ff" S 0 1 "ft" S 0 0 "src" S 0 0 "stx" S 0 0 "sty" S 0 0 "str" S 0 0 "sr" S 0 0 "ssx" S 0 1 "ssy" S 0 1 "ss" S 0 0 "spx" S 0 1024 "spy" S 0 778 "stot" S 0 0 "sto" S 0 0 "sv" S 0 0 "sf" S 0 1 "sb" S 0 1 "nv" S 0 1 "view1" S 0 1 "ltn" S 0 1 "ltm" S 0 1 "ltt" S 0 0 "tt" S 0 4 "pt" S 0 0 } } NumOfChildren: 0 } } } } toolbox {selectAll { { selectAll ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 } { createBezier ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 tt 4 } { createBSpline ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { createEllipse ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { createRectangle ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { brush ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { eraser src 2 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { clone src 1 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { reveal src 3 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { dodge src 1 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { burn src 1 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { blur src 1 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { sharpen src 1 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { smear src 1 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } } } toolbar_brush_hardness 0.200000003 toolbar_lifetime_type all toolbar_source_transform_scale {1 1} toolbar_source_transform_center {320 240} color {1 0 0 1} colorOverlay 0 lifetime_type "all frames" motionblur_shutter_offset_type centred source_black_outside true createNewTrack {{-1} "-1\t(none)\t-1" "1000\tNew Track Layer\t1000"} name RotoPaint4 selected true xpos -280 ypos 72 } push $N221a3540 push $N245233b0 Merge2 { inputs 2 operation mask name Merge1 selected true xpos -54 ypos -107 } Text { message "zoom in here\nand compare" font "/Library/Fonts/Trebuchet MS.ttf" yjustify center box {512 389 1536 1167} translate {866 -124} center {1024 778} color {1 0 0 1} name Text1 selected true xpos -54 ypos -83 } RotoPaint { curves {AnimTree: "" { Version: 1.2 Flag: 0 RootNode: 1 Node: { NodeName: "Root" { Flag: 512 NodeType: 1 Transform: 0 0 S 0 0 S 0 0 S 0 0 S 0 1 S 0 1 S 0 0 S 0 1024 S 0 778 NumOfAttributes: 11 "vis" S 0 1 "opc" S 0 1 "mbo" S 0 1 "mb" S 0 1 "mbs" S 0 0.5 "fo" S 0 1 "fx" S 0 0 "fy" S 0 0 "ff" S 0 1 "ft" S 0 0 "pt" S 0 0 } NumOfChildren: 1 Node: { NodeName: "Bezier1" { Flag: 512 NodeType: 3 CurveGroup: "" { Transform: 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 1 S 1 1 1 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 1210.91 S 1 1 743.386 Flag: 0 NumOfCubicCurves: 2 CubicCurve: "" { Type: 0 Flag: 8192 Dim: 2 NumOfPoints: 21 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 1263.54 S 1 1 665.618 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 1214 S 1 1 650.217 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 1262.64 S 1 1 634.482 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 1262.64 S 1 1 644.86 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 1351.8 S 1 1 642.517 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 1351.8 S 1 1 654.235 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 1264.89 S 1 1 655.574 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 } CubicCurve: "" { Type: 0 Flag: 8192 Dim: 2 NumOfPoints: 21 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 0 S 1 1 0 S 1 1 0 0 } NumOfAttributes: 44 "vis" S 0 1 "r" S 0 1 "g" S 0 0 "b" S 0 0 "a" S 0 1 "ro" S 0 0 "go" S 0 0 "bo" S 0 0 "ao" S 0 0 "opc" S 0 1 "bm" S 0 0 "inv" S 0 0 "mbo" S 0 0 "mb" S 0 1 "mbs" S 0 0.5 "mbsot" S 0 0 "mbso" S 0 0 "fo" S 0 1 "fx" S 0 0 "fy" S 0 0 "ff" S 0 1 "ft" S 0 0 "src" S 0 0 "stx" S 0 0 "sty" S 0 0 "str" S 0 0 "sr" S 0 0 "ssx" S 0 1 "ssy" S 0 1 "ss" S 0 0 "spx" S 0 1024 "spy" S 0 778 "stot" S 0 0 "sto" S 0 0 "sv" S 0 0 "sf" S 0 1 "sb" S 0 1 "nv" S 0 1 "view1" S 0 1 "ltn" S 0 1 "ltm" S 0 1 "ltt" S 0 0 "tt" S 0 4 "pt" S 0 0 } } NumOfChildren: 0 } } } } toolbox {selectAll { { selectAll ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 } { createBezier ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 tt 4 } { createBSpline ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { createEllipse ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { createRectangle ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { brush ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { eraser src 2 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { clone src 1 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { reveal src 3 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { dodge src 1 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { burn src 1 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { blur src 1 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { sharpen src 1 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } { smear src 1 ssx 1 ssy 1 sf 1 sb 1 } } } toolbar_brush_hardness 0.200000003 toolbar_lifetime_type all toolbar_source_transform_scale {1 1} toolbar_source_transform_center {320 240} color {1 0 0 1} colorOverlay 0 lifetime_type "all frames" view {} motionblur_on true motionblur_shutter_offset_type centred source_black_outside true createNewTrack {{-1} "-1\t(none)\t-1" "1000\tNew Track Layer\t1000"} name RotoPaint3 selected true xpos -54 ypos -59 } Viewer { inputs 2 frame 1 input_number 1 input_process false name Viewer1 selected true xpos -69 ypos 129 } Ron Ganbar email: ron...@gmail.com tel: +44 (0)7968 007 309 [UK] +972 (0)54 255 9765 [Israel] url: http://ronganbar.wordpress.com/
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