Judging by the support of it, I'll check whether I missed the whole point of Discourse when I was trying to use it, in the meantime.
On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 7:57 PM Stephan Hoyer <sho...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 10:21 AM Ilhan Polat <ilhanpo...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > GitHub Discussions is more of a Q&A platform, like Stackoverflow. I >> don't think it really makes sense for free form discussion. >> >> I don't see how it is to be honest. I'm hearing this complaint quite >> often but I can't see how that is. That's quite not my experience. >> Especially in node.js repo and other participants of the discussions beta >> are quite happy with it. >> >> Maybe I should rephrase why I am mentining this; Very often, some thing >> is popping up in the issues asking for whether X is suitable for Sci/NumPy >> and we lead the user here and more often than not they don't follow up. I >> can't blame them because the whole mailing list experience especially for >> the newcomers is a dreadful experience and most of the time you don't get >> any feedback. Also you can't move because in the issue we told them to come >> here and nobody is interested, then things stop unless someone nudges the >> repo issue which was the idea in the first place. So in a way we are >> putting this barrier as in "go talk to the elders in the mountain and bring >> some shiny gems on your way back" which makes not much sense. We are using >> the issues and PRs anyways to discuss stuff willingly or not so I can't >> say I follow the argument for the holistic mailing list format. This >> doesn't mean that I ignore the convenience because that was the case in the >> last decades. I'm totally fine with it. But if we are going to move it >> let's make it count not switch to an identical platform just for the sake >> of it. If not Github then something actually encourages the community to >> join and not getting in the way. >> > > I agree, "go talk to the elders in the mountain" is not a great experience. > > One of the other problems about mailing lists is that it's awkward or > impossible to ping old discussions. E.g., if you find a mailing list thread > discussing an issue from two years ago, you pretty much have to start a new > thread to discuss it. > > I think GitHub discussions is a perfectly fine web-based platform and > definitely an improvement over a mailing list, but do like Discourse a > little better. It's literally one click for a user to sign up to post on > Discourse if they already have a GitHub account. > > > >> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 6:31 PM Stephan Hoyer <sho...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 8:55 AM Matthew Brett <matthew.br...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Only to say that: >>>> >>>> * I used to have a very firm preference for mail, because I'm pretty >>>> happy with Gmail as a mail interface, and I didn't want to have >>>> another channel I had to monitor, but >>>> * I've spent more time on Discourse over the last year, mainly on >>>> Jupyter, but I have also set up instances for my own projects. I now >>>> have a fairly strong preference for Discourse, because of its very >>>> nice Markdown authoring, pleasant web interface for reviewing >>>> discussions and reasonable mailing list mode. >>>> >>> >>> +1 Markdown support, the ability to edit/delete posts, a good web >>> interface and the possibility for new-comers to jump into an ongoing >>> discussion are all major advantages to Discourse. >>> >>> I am not concerned about spam management or moderation. NumPy-Discussion >>> is not a very popular form, and we have plenty of mature contributors to >>> help moderate. >>> >>> >>>> * I have hardly used Github Discussions, so I can't comment on them. >>>> Are there large projects that are happy with them? How does that >>>> compare to Discourse, for example? >>>> >>> >>> GitHub Discussions is more of a Q&A platform, like Stackoverflow. I >>> don't think it really makes sense for free form discussion. >>> >>> >>>> * It will surely cause some harm if it is not clear where discussions >>>> happen, mainly (mailing list, Discourse, Github Discussions) so it >>>> seems to me better to decide on one standard place, and commit to >>>> that. >>>> >>> >>> +1 let's pick a place and stick to it! >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> Matthew >>>> >>>> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 4:39 PM Rohit Goswami <rgosw...@quansight.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > I’m firmly against GH discussions because of the upvoting mechanism. >>>> We don’t need to be Reddit or SO. .NET had a bad experience with the >>>> discussions as well [1]. >>>> > >>>> > [1] https://github.com/dotnet/aspnetcore/issues/29935 >>>> > >>>> > — Rohit >>>> > >>>> > On 1 Oct 2021, at 15:04, Andras Deak wrote: >>>> > >>>> > On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 4:27 PM Ilhan Polat <ilhanpo...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> The reason why I mentioned GH discussions is that literally >>>> everybody who is engaged with the code, is familiar with the format, >>>> included in the codebase product and has replies in built unlike the >>>> Discourse (opinion is mine) useless flat discussion design where replies >>>> are all over the place just like the mailing list in case you are not using >>>> a tree view supporting client. Hence topic hijacking is one of the main >>>> usability difficulties of emails. >>>> >> >>>> >> The goal here is to have a coherent engagement with everyone not >>>> just within a small circle, such that there is indeed a discussion >>>> happening rather than a few people chiming in. It would be a nice analytics >>>> exercise to have how many active users using these lists. I'd say 20-25 max >>>> for contribs and team members which is really not much. I know some people >>>> are still using IRC and mailing lists but I wouldn't argue that these are >>>> the modern media to have proper engaging discussions. "Who said to whom" is >>>> the bread and butter of such discussions. And I do think that discourse is >>>> exactly the same thing with mailing lists with a slightly better UI while >>>> virtually everyone else in the world is doing replies. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > (There are probably a lot of users like myself who follow the mailing >>>> list discussions but rarely feel the need to speak up themselves. Not that >>>> this says much either way in the discussion, just pointing it out). >>>> > >>>> > I'm not intimately familiar with github discussions (I've only used >>>> it a few times), but as far as I can tell it only has answers (or >>>> "comments") and comments (or "replies") on answers, i.e. 2 levels of >>>> replies rather than a flat single level of replies. If this is indeed the >>>> case then I'm not sure it's that much better than a flat system, since when >>>> things really get hairy then 2 levels are probably also insufficient to >>>> ensure "who said to whom". The "clear replies" argument would hold stronger >>>> (in my peanut-gallery opinion) for a medium that supports full reply trees >>>> like many comment sections do on various websites. >>>> > >>>> > András >>>> > >>>> >> >>>> >> I would be willing to help with the objections raised since I have >>>> been using GH discussions for quite a while now and there are many tools >>>> available for administration of the discussions. For example, >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> https://github.blog/changelog/2021-09-14-notification-emails-for-discussions/ >>>> >> >>>> >> is a recent feature. I don't work for GitHub obviously and have >>>> nothing to do with them but the reasons I'm willing to hear about. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 3:07 PM Matthew Brett < >>>> matthew.br...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Hi, >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 1:57 PM Rohit Goswami < >>>> rgosw...@quansight.com> wrote: >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > I guess then the approach overall would evolve to something like >>>> using the mailing list to announce discourse posts which need input. Though >>>> I would assume that the web interface essentially makes the mailing list >>>> almost like discourse, even for new users. >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > The real issue IMO is still the moderation efforts and additional >>>> governance needed for maintaining discourse. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Yes - that was what I meant. I do see that mailing lists are >>>> harder >>>> >>> to moderate, in that once the email has gone out, it is difficult to >>>> >>> revoke. So is the argument just that you *can* moderate on >>>> Discourse, >>>> >>> therefore you need to think about it more? Do we have any reason to >>>> >>> think that more moderation will in fact be needed? We've needed >>>> very >>>> >>> little so far on the mailing list, as far as I can see. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Chers, >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Matthew >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org >>>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org >>>> >>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ >>>> >>> Member address: ilhanpo...@gmail.com >>>> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org >>>> >> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org >>>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ >>>> >> Member address: deak.and...@gmail.com >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org >>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org >>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ >>>> > Member address: rgosw...@quansight.com >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org >>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org >>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ >>>> > Member address: matthew.br...@gmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org >>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ >>>> Member address: sho...@gmail.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org >>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ >>> Member address: ilhanpo...@gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ >> Member address: sho...@gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org > To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ > Member address: ilhanpo...@gmail.com >
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