Well said! Just a few anecdotal data points and an opinion or two....

On Sep 18, 2012, at 11:46 PM, Robert Raszuk <[email protected]> wrote:

> Hi Patrick,
> 
> > Somewhat true, it depends on the DC. Many enterprise DC and hosting
>> providers DC are disconnected from the WAN - the ISP offers the WAN
>> connections and the DC uses a different "signalling mechanism for
>> their network, such as STP ;.)
> 
> To clarify ... by integration with WAN I meant a case of service provider who 
> already offers VPN service for enterprise X to also offer DC services for the 
> same enterprise X.
> 
> One could be very correct to ask if such enterprise X will not be better to 
> use DC services outside of their VPN SP, but they are free to do that today 
> anyway.
> 
>> Not that many uses MPLS inside their DCs, a few though.
> 
> There is huge not widely recognized difference between using MPLS for 
> forwarding and using MPLS for applications as a demux tag.
> 
> While I can agree that the former is pretty much over .. too many 
> architectural scaling and overhead protocol issues the latter is clearly IMHO 
> as good as using any other value for demux .. be it GRE key in NVGRE or VXLAN.
> 
>> Also the WAN
>> network and DC network are usually in different management domains.
> 
> Very true .. that's why the right interconnect model must consider such 
> separation. And among most VPN interconnect models it seems that option B 
> (with its A's flavor when needed) is gaining momentum today in DC interface 
> to the WAN.

One result of the disconnect between the DC and WAN camps: requests from WAN 
customers to be able to detect and collect basic statistics on VXLAN/etc 
activity passing through is ever increasing.

> 
>> But the liveness detection of the path must be handled somehow by the
>> encapsulation scheme, right?
> 
> Well .. not by the encapsulation itself. It could be control plane or data 
> plane based. Encapsulation scheme is orthogonal.
> 
> For control plane there are number of solutions already today.
> 
> For data plane to be fair in practice there is only one - LISP.
> 
>> If that is the case, should that be taking care of the network or the
>> endpoints? By locating the NVE as far at the edge the tunneling scheme
>> will scale quite well depending on how many VMs you are allocating per
>> NVE (x86 platform) - 10, 50, 100?
> 
> Agree 100%. So while some still trying to see NVE in the network IMHO and 
> maybe not so humble it seems clear that NVE should be on the host. Is 100 max 
> number of VMs you can squeeze out of the host .. I think it really depends on 
> your host.

As long as the number of core per host increases, the number of VMs per host 
will also increase. No cap should be assumed.

> 
>> My background is also from BGP/LDP based L3VPN and L2VPN and I have
>> some experience with SIP, trying to think out of the box
> 
> That's always great. And while I admit I do not have any SIP experience other 
> then playing with my SIP phone to get connected to the SIP gateway I think 
> thinking out of the box is the most valuable feature.
> 
>> Agree. SIP would only keep track of where the VMs are located. Turning
>> this around, what new services would a BGP based L3VPN and L2VPN offer
>> in the DC? We have been on this path for the last 10-15 years on the
>> WAN side and some experience with a few DCs.
> 
> Ahhh you are touching very sensitive space on what new services model will be 
> .. I think we do not know. We do not even know if new services will use 
> traditional/legacy network model or new emerging one be it openflow based or 
> forces based.
> 
> One thing is clear .. the NVO3 architecture should be compatible with any 
> service virtualization mechanism. And again putting virtualization to the end 
> hosts for tenants or for appliances seems like the easiest way to accomplish 
> the compatibility with the future.

_yes_

> 
> 
>>> As said above I am not sure the "rushing" is right term. If you look at your
>>> requirements from operators point of view we have customers interconnected
>>> with L3 or L2 VPNs. Adding seamless DC to their services is a very important
>>> service.
>> 
>> Which operators do you refer to - enterprises, ISP, telcos, cloud,
>> hosting providers?
> 
> I mean SPs/ISPs/Telcos with both VPN and internal cloud services.
> 
> Rgs,
> R.
> 
> 
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