You missed both my points entirely. 

Phil

On 2013-08-13, at 8:05, Justin Richer <[email protected]> wrote:

> You can definitely issue or use other kinds of secrets with both dyn reg and 
> the scim variant -- this was the reason we made a registry for the 
> token_endpoint_auth_method at your (Phil's) request. Thing is, there weren't 
> documents that described the authentication mechanisms that we could directly 
> point to. OIDC has a method of using a client's own public key (which gets 
> registered with jwks_uri), but that wasn't general enough to include here so 
> we left it in the OIDC extension document, where it belongs. In that case, 
> the client wouldn't get a client_secret. The same is true if you issue a 
> client_assertion as part of the registration process. 
> 
> It would get a registration_access_token, though, so that it can manage its 
> own registration if needed. But that's just a very basic OAuth2 Bearer token, 
> and if your OAuth server can't handle issuing and validating OAuth tokens, 
> you probably shouldn't be letting clients register themselves anyway. ;)
> 
>  -- Justin
> 
> 
> On 08/13/2013 11:00 AM, Phil Hunt wrote:
>> Dyn reg and the scim reg variant depend too much/biased towards  passwords 
>> expressed as client secrets. 
>> 
>> A signed token approach has many advantages for service providers like not 
>> having to maintain a secure database of secrets/passwords. 
>> 
>> Finally issuing both a client secret and registration token is costly and 
>> confusing to client developers.  I relented somewhat when I realized 
>> kerberos does this--but i still feel it is a bad design at cloud scale. 
>> 
>> Phil
>> 
>> On 2013-08-13, at 7:48, Justin Richer <[email protected]> wrote:
>> 
>>> The spec doesn't care where you deploy at -- if URL space is at a premium 
>>> for you, then switch based on input parameters and other things. And you're 
>>> still not clear on which "secrets" you're taking issue with.
>>> 
>>>  -- Justin
>>> 
>>> On 08/13/2013 10:46 AM, Anthony             Nadalin wrote:
>>>> #1, its yet another endpoint to have to manage secrets at, yes this is an 
>>>> OAuth item but it’s growing out of control, we are trying to move away 
>>>> from secrets and management of these endpoints as this would be just 
>>>> another one we have to support, monitor and report on
>>>> #2 yes, 1 physical endpoint acting as multiple authorization servers
>>>>  
>>>> From: George Fletcher [mailto:[email protected]] 
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 7:40 AM
>>>> To: Anthony Nadalin
>>>> Cc: [email protected]; Justin Richer; [email protected]
>>>> Subject: Re: [OAUTH-WG] OX needs Dynamic Registration: please don't remove!
>>>>  
>>>> Hi Tony,
>>>> 
>>>> Could you please explain a little more? 
>>>> 
>>>> For issue 1:
>>>> * Which "secret" are you referring to? OAuth2 by default allows for an 
>>>> optional client_secret. I'm not sure why this would cause management 
>>>> issues? Or are you referring to the "Registration Access Token"?
>>>> * Why is a separate endpoint an issue? Any client is going to be talking 
>>>> to more than just the /authorize and /token endpoints anyway so I'm 
>>>> confused regarding the extra complexity?
>>>> 
>>>> For issue 2:
>>>> * What specifically do you mean by "multi-tenant"? Is this one server 
>>>> acting on behalf of multiple tenants and so appearing as multiple 
>>>> Authorization Servers? 
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> George
>>>> 
>>>> On 8/13/13 10:34 AM, Anthony Nadalin wrote:
>>>> So, (1) Management of the secret causes us management issues, yet another 
>>>> endpoint to manage, there may be ways around this issue with assertions. 
>>>> (2) The schema/data model are not useable as defined. Internationalization 
>>>> is an issue. Multi-tenant issues, this also goes back to schema/data model.
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] 
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 7:22 AM
>>>> To: Anthony Nadalin
>>>> Cc: Justin Richer; George Fletcher; [email protected]
>>>> Subject: RE: [OAUTH-WG] OX needs Dynamic Registration: please don't remove!
>>>>  
>>>> Anthony,
>>>>  
>>>> As I mentioned, we are using it as part of the OX UMA implementation. 
>>>> Can you be more specific?
>>>>    1) What parts of it would cause add'l management?
>>>>    2) What parts do not meet your requirements that could not be satisfied 
>>>> with a
>>>>       supplemental profile?
>>>>  
>>>> - Mike
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> On 2013-08-13 09:15, Anthony Nadalin wrote:
>>>> Who has implemented draft-ietf-oauth-dyn-reg-14 [5] and is in 
>>>> production (of some sort) ? We have no plans to implement as it does 
>>>> not meet our requirements/use cases and causes additional management 
>>>> and thus I believe would not serve as a valid core document to expand 
>>>> upon.
>>>>  
>>>> FROM: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] ON BEHALF 
>>>> OF Justin Richer
>>>>  SENT: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 6:59 AM
>>>>  TO: George Fletcher
>>>>  CC: [email protected]; [email protected]
>>>>  SUBJECT: Re: [OAUTH-WG] OX needs Dynamic Registration: please don't 
>>>> remove!
>>>>  
>>>> +1
>>>>  
>>>> On 08/13/2013 09:34 AM, George Fletcher wrote:
>>>>  
>>>> I know I wasn't at the IETF meeting but I'm confused regarding all 
>>>> this talk of "lack of consensus". It seems to me there is a lot of 
>>>> consensus regarding the existing spec (given all the current 
>>>> implementations). Couple that with the fact that the current spec 
>>>> doesn't exclude the additional use cases that you've raised, I don't 
>>>> see why we don't establish the current spec as the core document and 
>>>> then develop profiles for the additional use cases. It is unlikely 
>>>> that there is going to be a true single solution because to cover all 
>>>> the use cases it will have to be so flexible that profiles will arise 
>>>> regardless. In that case, let's build off the solid core that we have 
>>>> and add these additional profiles providing a win-win for 
>>>> implementers.
>>>>  
>>>> My 2 cents:)
>>>>  
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> George
>>>>  
>>>> On 8/12/13 7:55 PM, Phil Hunt wrote:
>>>>  
>>>> I don't think there is a call to stop work. However there is a lack 
>>>> of consensus on the current draft moving forward.
>>>>  
>>>> I too want a single, simple solution.
>>>>  
>>>> Phil
>>>>  
>>>> On 2013-08-08, at 13:22, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>  
>>>> OAuth WG,
>>>>  
>>>> As some of you may know, the OX open source project provides an 
>>>> implementation of Enterprise UMA, which enables organizations to 
>>>> control which people and clients can access web resources.
>>>>  
>>>> I rarely weigh in, because you all are doing such great job. 
>>>> However, I was quite distressed to learn about the suggestion to 
>>>> stop work on the dynamic client registration spec. This proposed 
>>>> change would have a negative impact on OX, and the varied adopters 
>>>> of our software from around the world.
>>>>  
>>>> No standard for dynamic client registration would make OX less 
>>>> "standard" by creating a bigger delta between UMA and other OAuth2 
>>>> implementations. As OX also implements the OpenID Connect OP 
>>>> endpoints, and dropping this effort would also makes a convergence 
>>>> path for client registration less likely.
>>>>  
>>>> Please leave dynamic client registration!
>>>>  
>>>> Thanks for all your great work!
>>>>  
>>>> - Mike Schwartz
>>>>  
>>>> Founder / CEO
>>>>  
>>>> Gluu
>>>>  
>>>> http://gluu.org [1]
>>>>  
>>>> PS: Help us crowd fund open source OAuth2 plugins for Apache HTTPD
>>>> : http://www.gluu.co/uma-apache [2]
>>>>  
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> --
>>>> [4]
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