Justin,

I was wondering why you put in the second sentence in bold. :-)

I’m not sure which one you want to take out. Would you post the text exactly as 
you would like it?

Thanks,

Phil

@independentid
www.independentid.com
[email protected]

> On Dec 1, 2015, at 11:21 AM, Justin Richer <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> You’ve got “The token remains opaque to the client” in there twice now. I had 
> cut out the middle part the first sentence in the second paragraph below, but 
> that was hard to highlight. If you take my text as-is that’s what I meant for 
> the edited form.
> 
> Thanks
>  — Justin
> 
>> On Dec 1, 2015, at 2:18 PM, Phil Hunt <[email protected] 
>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>> 
>> Including Justin’s revision:
>> 
>>   A large range of threats can be mitigated by protecting the content
>>    of the token, for example using a digital signature or a keyed
>>    message digest.  Alternatively, the content of the token could be
>>    passed by reference rather than by value (requiring a separate
>>    message exchange to resolve the reference to the token content).
>> 
>>    To simplify discussion in the following examples, we assume that the
>>    token itself is integrity protected by the authorization server and
>>    the token remains opaque to the client.  The token itself cannot be
>>    modified by the client, either due to cryptographic protection (such
>>    as signature or encryption) or the use of a reference value with
>>    sufficient entropy and associated secure lookup.  The token remains
>>    opaque to the client.  These are characteristics shared with bearer
>>    tokens and more information on best practices can be found in
>>    [RFC6819] and in the security considerations section of [RFC6750].
>> 
>> Phil
>> 
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com/>[email protected] 
>> <mailto:[email protected]>
>>> On Dec 1, 2015, at 10:35 AM, Phil Hunt <[email protected] 
>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thanks Justin. Your tweaks look good to me.
>>> 
>>> Phil
>>> 
>>> @independentid
>>> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com/>[email protected] 
>>> <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>> On Dec 1, 2015, at 10:28 AM, Kathleen Moriarty 
>>>> <[email protected] 
>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> The changes work for me, thanks.
>>>> 
>>>> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 1:27 PM, Justin Richer <[email protected] 
>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>> That’s much better. I would also suggest that a few edits to hammer home 
>>>> that this is an example
>>>> 
>>>>>  A large range of threats can be mitigated by protecting the content
>>>>>    of the token, for example using a digital signature or a keyed
>>>>>    message digest.  Alternatively, the content of the token could be
>>>>>    passed by reference rather than by value (requiring a separate
>>>>>    message exchange to resolve the reference to the token content).  To
>>>>>    simplify discussion in the following example we assume 
>>>>>    that the token itself […]
>>>>>    cannot be modified by the client, either due to cryptographic
>>>>>    protection (such as signature or encryption) or use of a reference
>>>>>    value with sufficient entropy and associated secure lookup.  The token 
>>>>> remains opaque to the client.
>>>>> These
>>>>>    are characteristics shared with bearer tokens and more information on
>>>>>    best practices can be found in [RFC6819] and in the security
>>>>>    considerations section of [RFC6750].
>>>> 
>>>> That’s really what’s going on by my read. Thoughts?
>>>> 
>>>>  — Justin
>>>> 
>>>>> On Dec 1, 2015, at 1:08 PM, Phil Hunt <[email protected] 
>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I’ve reviewed the comments from John, Justin and Kathleen. As suggested, 
>>>>> I plan to remove the erroneous first paragraph in section 5 (draft 06).
>>>>> 
>>>>> Combining the comments from this thread about sec 6, here is the proposed 
>>>>> new first paragraph:
>>>>> 
>>>>>  A large range of threats can be mitigated by protecting the content
>>>>>    of the token, for example using a digital signature or a keyed
>>>>>    message digest.  Alternatively, the content of the token could be
>>>>>    passed by reference rather than by value (requiring a separate
>>>>>    message exchange to resolve the reference to the token content).  To
>>>>>    simplify the subsequent description we assume in the PoP architecture
>>>>>    that the token itself is integrity protected by the authorization
>>>>>    server and the token remains opaque to the client.  The token itself
>>>>>    cannot be modified by the client, either due to cryptographic
>>>>>    protection (such as signature or encryption) or use of a reference
>>>>>    value with sufficient entropy and associated secure lookup.  These
>>>>>    are characteristics shared with bearer tokens and more information on
>>>>>    best practices can be found in [RFC6819] and in the security
>>>>>    considerations section of [RFC6750].
>>>>> If this looks good to the group, I’ll post draft 7 this afternoon 
>>>>> (pacific).
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Phil
>>>>> 
>>>>> @independentid
>>>>> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com/>[email protected] 
>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>>>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Kathleen Moriarty 
>>>>>> <[email protected] 
>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 3:58 PM, John Bradley <[email protected] 
>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>>>> I am fine with that, however saying integrity protected, may be better 
>>>>>> than signed.  May people will argue that HMAC or encryption with sender 
>>>>>> verification is not signature.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Good point, I also prefer integrity protected.  Are we all good with 
>>>>>> this now?  I'd like to look at a diff to make sure after following the 
>>>>>> thread.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> However they are perfectly valid.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 5:53 PM, Justin Richer <[email protected] 
>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The requirement is not that signed JWTs be used, it’s that unsigned 
>>>>>>> JWTs not be used on their own. Reference tokens and encrypted JWTs are 
>>>>>>> also valid, as are other signed formats like SAML assertions or even a 
>>>>>>> COSE Token (if it’s encoded to HTTP friendliness). 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> My recommendation:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Remove the erroneous requirement text from section 5 and restore to 
>>>>>>> previous version.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Amend the text in section 6 from:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>    To
>>>>>>>    simplify the subsequent description we assume in the PoP architecture
>>>>>>>    that the token itself is digitally signed by the authorization server
>>>>>>>    and therefore cannot be modified.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> To:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>    In all such cases, the token remains opaque to the client. To
>>>>>>>    simplify the subsequent example and description we assume in the PoP 
>>>>>>> architecture
>>>>>>>    that the token itself cannot be modified by the client, either due to
>>>>>>>    cryptographic protection (such as signature or encryption) or use of 
>>>>>>>    a reference value with sufficient entropy and associated secure 
>>>>>>> lookup.
>>>>>>>    These are characteristics shared with bearer tokens and more 
>>>>>>> information
>>>>>>>    on best practices can be found in [[RFC6819]] and in the security 
>>>>>>>    considerations section of [[RFC6750]]. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  — Justin
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 3:39 PM, Kathleen Moriarty 
>>>>>>>> <[email protected] 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 3:20 PM, John Bradley <[email protected] 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Tokens are signed or the information is otherwise integrity protected 
>>>>>>>>> between the AS and the RS.  
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I suspect Kathleen is concerned about the key getting modified in 
>>>>>>>>> transit.   
>>>>>>>>> That needs to be protected against, but there is more than one way to 
>>>>>>>>> do that.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Phil is correct.  I was looking for consistency between the sections 
>>>>>>>> since they related to each other.  If there is a security risk or 
>>>>>>>> consideration, that needs to be explicitly called out as a concern 
>>>>>>>> such as a key being modified in transit.  If there are options to 
>>>>>>>> protect against that, those would ideally be required or would have 
>>>>>>>> warnings.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> So sending the public key in a unsigned JWT access token would be 
>>>>>>>>> immensely stupid,  not just for PoP but for scopes and everything 
>>>>>>>>> else.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Good, easy to require then.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Kathleen 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> In OAuth 2 all tokens need to be integrity protected between the AS 
>>>>>>>>> and RS.  
>>>>>>>>> That can be via signature,  by having a reference with sufficient 
>>>>>>>>> entropy and secure introspection or database lookup.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I think that is a OAuth 2 security consideration.   We are adding a 
>>>>>>>>> additional confirmation claim to the existing information that needs 
>>>>>>>>> to be protected the same as the rest.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 4:38 PM, Phil Hunt <[email protected] 
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> <editors hat>
>>>>>>>>>> If there is agreement that tokens are opaque then the requirement 
>>>>>>>>>> that tokens be signed must be removed from the threat mitigation 
>>>>>>>>>> requirements. 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> And the paragraph in sec 5 that brian was concerned about be 
>>>>>>>>>> restored. 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 11:24, Justin Richer <[email protected] 
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> It is still end to end authentication with opaque tokens — since 
>>>>>>>>>>> all OAuth tokens, including PoP tokens, have always been intended 
>>>>>>>>>>> to be opaque to the client. That hasn’t changed and that isn’t the 
>>>>>>>>>>> intent of this document. If that’s how people are reading it then 
>>>>>>>>>>> we need to pull it back and rewrite it so that’s not the case.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> The client gets a token that has two parts: the token and the key. 
>>>>>>>>>>> The token is analogous to the access_token we have today and would 
>>>>>>>>>>> come out of the server in the same field. The key is handed to the 
>>>>>>>>>>> client alongside the token or registered by the client during the 
>>>>>>>>>>> token request. Either way there’s an association between the two 
>>>>>>>>>>> but it’s not the same association as a public/private keypair. 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> It’s possible to sign the token itself, but the client doesn’t 
>>>>>>>>>>> care. It sends the token and signs the HTTP request to the RS 
>>>>>>>>>>> whether the token is signed, unsigned, hex blob, encrypted, or 
>>>>>>>>>>> anything else. The same series of options are available as with 
>>>>>>>>>>> bearer tokens. PoP tokens have never, ever been intended to be 
>>>>>>>>>>> anything but opaque to the client.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> The token can’t be opaque to the RS, which has to figure out what 
>>>>>>>>>>> key to use to check the message signature. But we’ve got options 
>>>>>>>>>>> there, like the embedded key in a JWT from Mike’s draft, or doing 
>>>>>>>>>>> introspection to get the key (from an extension that hasn’t been 
>>>>>>>>>>> written yet), or simply looking it up in the same database because 
>>>>>>>>>>> the RS and the AS are in the same box. Does this 
>>>>>>>>>>> structure/service/database choice sound familiar? It should, it’s 
>>>>>>>>>>> the same as bearer tokens. This is also how the RS gets information 
>>>>>>>>>>> like which scopes are associated with the token, if it’s expired, 
>>>>>>>>>>> and all that. 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> So here’s how I see it going on the wire:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> (I just wrote this up so there are probably holes. Here’s the 
>>>>>>>>>>> source if anyone wants to tweak it: 
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.websequencediagrams.com/?lz=cGFydGljaXBhbnQgQ2xpZW50IGFzIEMKAAwMUmVzb3VyY2UgT3duZXIgYXMgUk8AFA1BdXRob3JpemF0aW9uIFNlcnYAIQZBUwA7DVByb3RlY3RlZABICmFzIFJTCgoKClJPLS0
>>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.websequencediagrams.com/?lz=cGFydGljaXBhbnQgQ2xpZW50IGFzIEMKAAwMUmVzb3VyY2UgT3duZXIgYXMgUk8AFA1BdXRob3JpemF0aW9uIFNlcnYAIQZBUwA7DVByb3RlY3RlZABICmFzIFJTCgoKClJPLS0>-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&s=modern-blue
>>>>>>>>>>>  )
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> The client is oblivious to the token just like always. This is 
>>>>>>>>>>> intentional. The RS has the same options to figure out how to 
>>>>>>>>>>> process the token.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>  — Justin
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 2:03 PM, Phil Hunt <[email protected] 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Folks, 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <editor hat>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I did not want to go here either. :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don’t read sec 6 as examples.  I believe this may stem from the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> pop-architecture documents having a dual role as both 
>>>>>>>>>>>> “architecture” and “use-case”.  Maybe we should clarify the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> purpose of the document?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I believe section 6 is talking about threat mitigation assumptions 
>>>>>>>>>>>> based on the examples that need to be implemented.  I am assuming 
>>>>>>>>>>>> these are requirements that the other specifications SHOULD 
>>>>>>>>>>>> implement.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <personal hat>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I do not believe we have discussed Opaque PoP tokens and any 
>>>>>>>>>>>> inherent risks because the client is not or is unable to validate 
>>>>>>>>>>>> the authenticity of the token.  Does this introduce the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> possibility of a MITM attack where a client can be convinced to 
>>>>>>>>>>>> sign requests for an attacker?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> If we want to include opaque PoP, I think we need to take a pause 
>>>>>>>>>>>> and consider / discuss any threats here.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I find the desire for opaque PoP tokens to be a bit contradictory. 
>>>>>>>>>>>> If we’re saying we don’t want to trust TLS alone (e.g. because of 
>>>>>>>>>>>> load-balancer termination), why would we then say, but we are 
>>>>>>>>>>>> perfectly willing to accept it worked for the OAuth AS exchanges?  
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe I was very wrong here, but my assumption all along is that 
>>>>>>>>>>>> for PoP we’re talking about end-to-end authentication of all 
>>>>>>>>>>>> parties except in the case of 3.3 where we simply want to protect 
>>>>>>>>>>>> an access token over a non-TLS HTTP connection.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>>>>>>>> www.independentid.com 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.independentid.com/>[email protected] 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 10:48 AM, Brian Campbell 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> While I can't say I disagree with the deeper existential 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> questions about the draft that Justin raises, I was trying not to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> go there and rather just point out concerns with the newly added 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> text. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The text Phil cites from Sec 6 doesn't say the client must be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to parse and verify the token. It's an assumption to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> simplify the examples that follow and still the token is opaque 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the client. I reread the whole draft (reluctantly) and there's 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nothing that says the token has to be non-opaque to the client. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And it does talk about reference style tokens and encrypted 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tokens, both of which rely on the opaqueness to the client. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 11:27 AM, Justin Richer <[email protected] 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right, I read that as text for describing the examples and not 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for describing requirements.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The token itself doesn’t have to be signed at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  — Justin
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 1:05 PM, Phil Hunt <[email protected] 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ok. Well this was requested by Kathleen because of this 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paragraph in Sec 6.…
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    To simplify the subsequent description we assume in the PoP 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> architecture
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    that the token itself is digitally signed by the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> authorization server
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    and therefore cannot be modified.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.independentid.com 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.independentid.com/>[email protected] 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 9:33 AM, Justin Richer <[email protected] 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The token doesn’t have to be signed and the client doesn’t have 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to verify the signature on the token. That’s not PoP. The 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> request has to be signed in a way that includes the token. The 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> token itself can still be opaque. The *key* material can’t be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opaque to the client, but the *token* material still is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with Brian that this statement is misleading.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The examples use a signed token but that is absolutely not a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> requirement. Maybe the examples shouldn’t all use one style.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What’s most difficult about this particular spec is that it’s 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very hand-wavy, saying “this is kinda a thing that kinda works 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like this” without saying how to actually do it. I’m honestly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not sure it’s worth publishing as an RFC in its own right but 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I’m not going to stand in its way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  — Justin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 12:14 PM, Brian Campbell 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected] 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where does it say that? 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 8:44 AM, Phil Hunt 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Except that later on we require the token be signed and the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> client verify that signed token. IOW mutual pop. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 07:30, Brian Campbell 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected] 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Looking at the diff I noticed the following new text, which 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seems to conflate bearer/PoP and opaqueness to the client. A 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> client demonstrating proof-of-possession of some key is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> orthogonal to the client being able to parse and understand 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the access token itself. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "In contrast to bearer tokens [RFC6750] which call for tokens 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that are opaque to OAuth 2.0 clients, this specification 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> defines the requirements for proof-of-possession ("PoP") 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tokens that may be parsed and verified by OAuth 2.0 clients 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and relying parties."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 1:07 PM, Phil Hunt 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This draft addresses review comments from Kathleen and Erik 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> raised since the last draft.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It may not include some of the discussion from 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yesterday/today.  I will add that as the group decides.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > On Nov 24, 2015, at 12:05 PM, [email protected] 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > <mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Internet-Drafts directories.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > This draft is a work item of the Web Authorization Protocol 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Working Group of the IETF.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >        Title           : OAuth 2.0 Proof-of-Possession 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > (PoP) Security Architecture
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >        Authors         : Phil Hunt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >                          Justin Richer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >                          William Mills
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >                          Prateek Mishra
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >                          Hannes Tschofenig
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >       Filename        : 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > draft-ietf-oauth-pop-architecture-06.txt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >       Pages           : 23
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >       Date            : 2015-11-24
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Abstract:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >   The OAuth 2.0 bearer token specification, as defined in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > RFC 6750,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >   allows any party in possession of a bearer token (a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > "bearer") to get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >   access to the associated resources (without demonstrating 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > possession
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >   of a cryptographic key).  To prevent misuse, bearer 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > tokens must be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >   protected from disclosure in transit and at rest.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >   Some scenarios demand additional security protection 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > whereby a client
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >   needs to demonstrate possession of cryptographic keying 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > material when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >   accessing a protected resource.  This document motivates 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >   development of the OAuth 2.0 proof-of-possession security 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > mechanism.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-oauth-pop-architecture/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-oauth-pop-architecture/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > There's also a htmlized version available at:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-oauth-pop-architecture-06
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-oauth-pop-architecture-06>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > A diff from the previous version is available at:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-oauth-pop-architecture-06
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > <https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-oauth-pop-architecture-06>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > time of submission
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > until the htmlized version and diff are available at 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > tools.ietf.org <http://tools.ietf.org/>.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > <ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > OAuth mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OAuth mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  <https://www.pingidentity.com/>                              
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brian Campbell
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Distinguished Engineer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ping Identity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> @     [email protected] 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       +1 720.317.2061 <tel:%2B1%20720.317.2061>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       @pingidentity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Connect with us!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  <https://www.pingidentity.com/> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.pingidentity.com/>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://ping.force.com/Support/PingIdentityCommunityHome> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.glassdoor.com/Overview/Working-at-Ping-Identity-EI_IE380907.11,24.htm>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   <https://twitter.com/pingidentity>  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/user/PingIdentityTV>  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/21870>  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/pingidentitypage>  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://plus.google.com/u/0/114266977739397708540>  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.slideshare.net/PingIdentity>  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://flip.it/vjBF7>  <https://www.pingidentity.com/blogs/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  <https://www.pingidentity.com/>                               
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brian Campbell
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Distinguished Engineer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ping Identity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> @      [email protected] 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>        +1 720.317.2061 <tel:%2B1%20720.317.2061>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>        @pingidentity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Connect with us!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  <https://www.pingidentity.com/> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.pingidentity.com/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  <https://ping.force.com/Support/PingIdentityCommunityHome> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://ping.force.com/Support/PingIdentityCommunityHome> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.glassdoor.com/Overview/Working-at-Ping-Identity-EI_IE380907.11,24.htm>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   <https://twitter.com/pingidentity>  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/user/PingIdentityTV>  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/21870>  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/pingidentitypage>  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://plus.google.com/u/0/114266977739397708540>  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.slideshare.net/PingIdentity>  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://flip.it/vjBF7>  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.pingidentity.com/blogs/>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OAuth mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  <https://www.pingidentity.com/>                          
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brian Campbell
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Distinguished Engineer
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ping Identity
>>>>>>>>>>>>> @ [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   +1 720.317.2061 <tel:%2B1%20720.317.2061>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   @pingidentity
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Connect with us!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  <https://www.pingidentity.com/> <https://www.pingidentity.com/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  <https://ping.force.com/Support/PingIdentityCommunityHome> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://ping.force.com/Support/PingIdentityCommunityHome> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.glassdoor.com/Overview/Working-at-Ping-Identity-EI_IE380907.11,24.htm>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   <https://twitter.com/pingidentity>  
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/user/PingIdentityTV>  
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/21870>  
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/pingidentitypage>  
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://plus.google.com/u/0/114266977739397708540>  
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.slideshare.net/PingIdentity>  <http://flip.it/vjBF7>  
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.pingidentity.com/blogs/>
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> OAuth mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth 
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> OAuth mailing list
>>>>>>>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth 
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> OAuth mailing list
>>>>>>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth 
>>>>>>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> OAuth mailing list
>>>>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth 
>>>>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth>
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> OAuth mailing list
>>>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth 
>>>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> 
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Kathleen
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OAuth mailing list
>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth 
>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth>
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> OAuth mailing list
>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth
> 

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