I guess I'm not clear what you are driving at.

On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 2:32 PM Phil Hunt <phil.h...@oracle.com> wrote:

> That way works. But one of the modes on most tls terminators is client
> cert optional.
>
> This works ok when you want dual mode to support bearer and mtls for apps
> (e.g. mobile) because the client will decide to use MTLS.  With browsers,
> they only use it if forced.
>
> Phil
>
> Oracle Corporation, Cloud Security and Identity Architect
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.h...@oracle.com
>
> On Feb 1, 2019, at 1:14 PM, Brian Campbell <bcampb...@pingidentity.com>
> wrote:
>
> The server has to ask during the handshake for a client to send a cert.
>
> On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 2:12 PM Phil Hunt <phil.h...@oracle.com> wrote:
>
>> If a client attempts to force mtls would typical tls terminators accept
>> it enough to redirect?
>>
>> My worry is how optionality works in browsers. It seems like they have to
>> hit an mtls required endpoint before they reliably use a client cert.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> On Feb 1, 2019, at 12:56 PM, Brian Campbell <bcampb...@pingidentity.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> It would be more a client having reached a non-MTLS endpoint and is 307'd
>> to an MTLS enabled endpoint.
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 1:40 PM Phil Hunt <phil.h...@oracle.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I was a bit confused by how the 307 would work.
>>>
>>> To confirm, Is the client having reached an MTLS optional endpoint being
>>> redirected to an MTLS mandatory endpoint if the AT (or a cookie) is
>>> detected to have a “cnf” claim in order to make the browser invoke MTLS?
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>> Oracle Corporation, Cloud Security and Identity Architect
>>> @independentid
>>> www.independentid.com
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.independentid.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=phUYsLIDYY7XNgWGCUgJ7N9VhrrCNFXff2qqJiEF2rc&s=XMz5UneDiol_fVUSqQrKTYmt9CaOqeHjRwMvPx3szZc&e=>
>>> phil.h...@oracle.com
>>>
>>> On Feb 1, 2019, at 11:56 AM, Brian Campbell <
>>> bcampbell=40pingidentity....@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm finally getting around to working on the document updates (there's
>>> quite a few things that came out of AD review too). As far as the issue in
>>> this thread goes though, I'm leaning towards adding "mtls_endpoints" as a
>>> new metadata parameter. Maybe mention that a 307 might happen but it'd be
>>> more of a considerations type text.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 5:52 AM Brian Campbell <
>>> bcampb...@pingidentity.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I guess I should have also said or been more straightforward in saying
>>>> that I don't particularly want to try and discuss/define the use of a 307
>>>> in the document.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 6:59 AM Filip Skokan <panva...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I don't know that the use of 307 would need to be discussed in the
>>>>>> document itself.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If the clients are supposed to be ready for this, yeah. For instance,
>>>>> my client software by default doesn't follow redirects, in order for it to
>>>>> be ready for mtls client authentication i'd have to know 307 is a
>>>>> possibility and whitelist 307 as a valid code to be followed.
>>>>>
>>>>> S pozdravem,
>>>>> *Filip Skokan*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 2:54 PM Brian Campbell <
>>>>> bcampb...@pingidentity.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know that the use of 307 would need to be discussed in the
>>>>>> document itself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 2:30 AM Filip Skokan <panva...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm in favour of both 307 and metadata.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    - case 307 - I don't recall ever encountering an http client
>>>>>>>    software that wouldn't have an option for following redirects, same 
>>>>>>> for a
>>>>>>>    server side frameworks not having the option to do a 307 response 
>>>>>>> with a
>>>>>>>    location header.
>>>>>>>    - case 307 - Relying purely on a new metadata doesn't help in
>>>>>>>    the scenario David put forth earlier about clients not being aware 
>>>>>>> of using
>>>>>>>    mtls, a device policy of sorts.
>>>>>>>    - case metadata - no second request if the client knows there's
>>>>>>>    an mtls endpoint it should use.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe we should specify both as optional for an AS to deploy and a
>>>>>>> client to be ready for?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> S pozdravem,
>>>>>>> *Filip Skokan*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 10:05 AM Dave Tonge <
>>>>>>> dave.to...@momentumft.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm in favour of the `mtls_endpoints` metadata parameter - although
>>>>>>>> it should be optional.
>>>>>>>> While a 307 redirect seems kind of elegant I worry, like you,  that
>>>>>>>> not all clients would handle it appropriately.
>>>>>>>> There would probably need to be an error defined for clients who
>>>>>>>> attempt to use `tls_client_auth` at the regular endpoint.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 at 22:29, Brian Campbell <bcampbell=
>>>>>>>> 40pingidentity....@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Trying to summarize things somewhat here and focus in hopefully
>>>>>>>>> towards some decision. There's basically an idea on the table to add 
>>>>>>>>> an AS
>>>>>>>>> metadata parameter to the draft-ietf-oauth-mtls doc that would be a 
>>>>>>>>> JSON
>>>>>>>>> object which contains endpoints that a client doing MTLS would use 
>>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>>> than the regular endpoints. A straw-man example might look like this 
>>>>>>>>> (with
>>>>>>>>> mtls_endpoints being that new parameter).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>   "issuer":"https://server.example.com";,
>>>>>>>>>   "authorization_endpoint":"https://server.example.com/authz";,
>>>>>>>>>   "token_endpoint":"https://server.example.com/token";,
>>>>>>>>>   "token_endpoint_auth_methods_supported":[
>>>>>>>>> "client_secret_basic","tls_client_auth", "none"],
>>>>>>>>>   "userinfo_endpoint":"https://server..example.com/userinfo
>>>>>>>>> <https://server.example.com/userinfo>",
>>>>>>>>>   "revocation_endpoint":"https://server.example.com/revo";,
>>>>>>>>>   "jwks_uri":"https://server.example.com/jwks.json";,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *  "mtls_endpoints":{      
>>>>>>>>> "token_endpoint":"https://mtls.example..com/token
>>>>>>>>> <https://mtls.example.com/token>",    
>>>>>>>>> "userinfo_endpoint":"https://mtls
>>>>>>>>> <https://server.example.com/token>.example.com/userinfo
>>>>>>>>> <http://example.com/userinfo>",    "revocation_endpoint":"https://mtls
>>>>>>>>> <https://server.example.com/token>..example.com/revo
>>>>>>>>> <http://example.com/revo>"  }*
>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The idea behind this is that "regular" clients (those not doing
>>>>>>>>> MTLS) will use the regular endpoints. And only the host/port of the
>>>>>>>>> endpoints listed in mtls_endpoints will be set up to request TLS 
>>>>>>>>> client
>>>>>>>>> certificates during handshake.. Thus any potential impact of the
>>>>>>>>> CertificateRequest message being sent in the TLS handshake can be 
>>>>>>>>> avoided
>>>>>>>>> for all the other regular clients that are not going to do MTLS - 
>>>>>>>>> including
>>>>>>>>> and most importantly in-browser javascript clients where there can be 
>>>>>>>>> less
>>>>>>>>> than desirable UI presented to the end-user.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The arguments in favor of that seem to be basically that it allows
>>>>>>>>> for AS deployments to support MTLS while still allowing for a "not 
>>>>>>>>> broken"
>>>>>>>>> UX for end-users of clients (in-browser javascript clients) that 
>>>>>>>>> aren't
>>>>>>>>> doing MTLS. And that it's not much in terms of adding to the spec and
>>>>>>>>> complexity of implementations.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The arguments against it seem to be 1) the bad UX isn't really
>>>>>>>>> that bad and/or will only happen to a subset of users 2) there are 
>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>> things that can be done, such as 307ing or 
>>>>>>>>> renegotiation/post-handshake
>>>>>>>>> client auth, to avoid the bad UX.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Speaking for myself, I'm kinda torn on it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I will say that, in addition to the folks that have pointed out
>>>>>>>>> that renegotiation just isn't possible in some cases, my experience 
>>>>>>>>> trying
>>>>>>>>> to do something like that in the past was not particularly successful 
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> encouraging. That could have been my fault, of course, but still 
>>>>>>>>> seems a
>>>>>>>>> relevant data point. I also have my doubts about the actual 
>>>>>>>>> difficulty of
>>>>>>>>> getting an AS to issue a 307 like response for requests based on the
>>>>>>>>> calling client and the likelihood that some/all OAuth client software 
>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>> handle it appropriately.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 12:32 PM David Waite <
>>>>>>>>> da...@alkaline-solutions.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> > On Jan 11, 2019, at 3:32 AM, Neil Madden <
>>>>>>>>>> neil.mad...@forgerock.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > On 9 Jan 2019, at 05:54, David Waite <
>>>>>>>>>> da...@alkaline-solutions.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >>> On Dec 28, 2018, at 3:55 PM, Brian Campbell <bcampbell=
>>>>>>>>>> 40pingidentity....@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>> >> <snip>
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >>> All of that is meant as an explanation of sorts to say that I
>>>>>>>>>> think that things are actually okay enough as is and that I'd like to
>>>>>>>>>> retract the proposal I'd previously made about the MTLS draft 
>>>>>>>>>> introducing a
>>>>>>>>>> new AS metadata parameter. It is admittedly interesting (ironic?) 
>>>>>>>>>> that Neil
>>>>>>>>>> sent a message in support of the proposal as I was writing this. It 
>>>>>>>>>> did
>>>>>>>>>> give me pause but ultimately didn't change my opinion that it's not 
>>>>>>>>>> worth
>>>>>>>>>> it to add this new AS metadata parameter.
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >> Note that the AS could make a decision based on the token
>>>>>>>>>> endpoint request - such as a policy associated with the “client_id”, 
>>>>>>>>>> or via
>>>>>>>>>> a parameter in the ilk of “client_assertion_type” indicating MTLS was
>>>>>>>>>> desired by this public client installation. The AS could then to TLS 
>>>>>>>>>> 1.2
>>>>>>>>>> renegotiation, 1.3 post-handshake client authentication, or even use 
>>>>>>>>>> 307
>>>>>>>>>> temporary redirects to another token endpoint to perform mutual
>>>>>>>>>> authentication.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > Renegotiation is an intriguing option, but it has some
>>>>>>>>>> practical difficulties. Our AS product runs in a Java servlet 
>>>>>>>>>> container,
>>>>>>>>>> where it is pretty much impossible to dynamically trigger 
>>>>>>>>>> renegotiation
>>>>>>>>>> without accessing private internal APIs of the container. I also 
>>>>>>>>>> don’t know
>>>>>>>>>> how you could coordinate this in the common scenario where TLS is
>>>>>>>>>> terminated at a load balancer/reverse proxy?
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > A 307 redirect could work though as the server will know if the
>>>>>>>>>> client either uses mTLS for client authentication or has indicated 
>>>>>>>>>> that it
>>>>>>>>>> wants certificate-bound access tokens, so it can redirect to a
>>>>>>>>>> mTLS-specific endpoint in those cases.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Agreed. There are trade-offs for both. As you say, I don’t know a
>>>>>>>>>> way to have say a custom error code or WWW-Authenticate challenge to
>>>>>>>>>> trigger renegotiation on the reverse proxy - usually this is just a 
>>>>>>>>>> static,
>>>>>>>>>> location-based directive.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> >> Both the separate metadata url and a
>>>>>>>>>> “client_assertion_type”-like indicator imply that the client has 
>>>>>>>>>> multiple
>>>>>>>>>> forms of authentication and is choosing to use MTLS. The URL in 
>>>>>>>>>> particular
>>>>>>>>>> I’m reluctant to add support for, because I see it more likely a 
>>>>>>>>>> client
>>>>>>>>>> would use MTLS without knowing it (via a device-level policy being 
>>>>>>>>>> applied
>>>>>>>>>> to a public web or native app) than the reverse, where a single 
>>>>>>>>>> client
>>>>>>>>>> (represented by a single client_id) is dynamically picking between 
>>>>>>>>>> forms of
>>>>>>>>>> authentication.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > That’s an interesting observation. Can you elaborate on the
>>>>>>>>>> sorts of device policy you are talking about? I am aware of e.g. 
>>>>>>>>>> mobile
>>>>>>>>>> device management being used to push client certificates to iOS 
>>>>>>>>>> devices,
>>>>>>>>>> but I think these are only available in Safari.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The primary use is to set policy to rely on device level
>>>>>>>>>> management in controlled environments like enterprises when 
>>>>>>>>>> available. So
>>>>>>>>>> an AS may try to detect a client certificate as an indicator of a 
>>>>>>>>>> managed
>>>>>>>>>> device, use that to assume a device with certain device-level
>>>>>>>>>> authentication, single user usage, remote wipe, etc. 
>>>>>>>>>> characteristics, and
>>>>>>>>>> decide that it can reduce user authentication requirements and/or 
>>>>>>>>>> expose
>>>>>>>>>> additional scopes.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On more thought, this is typically done as part of the user agent
>>>>>>>>>> hitting the authorization endpoint, as a separate native application 
>>>>>>>>>> may be
>>>>>>>>>> interacting with the token endpoint, and in some operating systems 
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> application’s network connections do not utilize (and may not have 
>>>>>>>>>> access
>>>>>>>>>> to) the system certificate store.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In terms of user agents, I believe you can perform similar
>>>>>>>>>> behavior (managed systems using client certificates on user agents
>>>>>>>>>> transparently) on macOS, Windows, Chrome, and Android devices, Chrome
>>>>>>>>>> (outside iOS) typically inherits device level policy. Firefox on 
>>>>>>>>>> desktop I
>>>>>>>>>> assume you can do that in limited fashion as well.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -DW
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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