"far" should have said "fair" in the previous message




On Tue, Feb 5, 2019 at 4:35 PM Brian Campbell <bcampb...@pingidentity.com>
wrote:

> It may well be due to my own intellectual shortcomings but these
> issues/questions/confusion-points are not resonating for me as being
> problematic.
>
> The more general stance of "this isn't needed or worth it in this
> document" (I think that's far?) is being heard though.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 5, 2019 at 1:42 PM Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna=
> 40amazon....@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
>> (TL;DR: punt AS metadata to a separate draft)
>>
>> AS points #1-3 are all questions I would have as an implementer:
>>
>>    1. Section 2 of RFC8414
>>    <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8414#section-2> says token_endpoint
>>    “is REQUIRED unless only the implicit grant type is supported..” So what
>>    does the mTLS-only AS put here?
>>    2. The claims for these other endpoints are OPTIONAL, potentially
>>    leading to inconsistency depending on how #1 gets decided.
>>    3. The example usage of the token_endpoint_auth_methods property
>>    given earlier is incompatible with RFC8414, since some of its contents are
>>    only valid for the non-mTLS endpoints, and others are only valid for the
>>    mTLS endpoints. Hence this question.
>>    4. This introduces a new metadata property that could impact how
>>    other specs should extend AS metadata. That needs to be addressed.
>>
>>
>>
>> I could go on for client points but you already get the point. Though
>> I’ll share that #3 is real and once forced me to roll back an update to the
>> Login with Amazon userinfo endpoint…good times. 😃
>>
>>
>>
>> I don’t necessarily think an AS metadata property is wrong per se, but
>> understand that you’re bolting a layer of flexibility onto a standard that
>> wasn’t designed for that, and I don’t think the metadata proposal as it’s
>> been discussed here sufficiently deals with the fallout from that. In my
>> view this is a complex enough issue and it’s for a nuanced enough use case
>> (as far as I can tell from discussion? Please correct me if I’m wrong) that
>> we should punt it to a separate draft (e.g., “Authorization Server Metadata
>> Extensions for mTLS Hybrids”) and get mTLS out the door.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>
>> AWS Identity
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *OAuth <oauth-boun...@ietf.org> on behalf of Brian Campbell
>> <bcampbell=40pingidentity....@dmarc.ietf.org>
>> *Date: *Monday, February 4, 2019 at 5:28 AM
>> *To: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna=40amazon....@dmarc.ietf.org>
>> *Cc: *oauth <oauth@ietf.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [OAUTH-WG] [UNVERIFIED SENDER] Re: MTLS and in-browser
>> clients using the token endpoint
>>
>>
>>
>> Those points of confusion strike me as somewhat hypothetical or
>> hyperbolic. But your general point is taken and your position of being anti
>> additional metadata on this issue is noted.
>>
>>
>>
>> All of which leaves me a bit uncertain about how to proceed. There seem
>> to be a range of opinions on this point and gauging consensus is proving
>> elusive for me. That's confounded by my own opinion on it being somewhat
>> fluid.
>>
>>
>>
>> And I'd really like to post an update to this draft about a month or two
>> ago.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 5:03 PM Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna=
>> 40amazon....@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>
>> Confusion from the AS’s perspective:
>>
>>    1. If I only support mTLS, do I need to include both
>>    token_endpoint_uri and mtls_endpoints? Should I omit token_endpoint_uri? 
>> Or
>>    set it to the empty string?
>>    2. What if I only support mTLS for the token endpoint, but not
>>    revocation or user info?
>>    3. How do I specify authentication methods for the mTLS token
>>    endpoint? Does token_endpoint_auth_methods apply to both the mTLS and
>>    non-mTLS endpoints?
>>    4. I’m using the OAuth 2.0 Device Flow. Do I include a mTLS-enabled
>>    device_authorization_endpoint under mtls_endpoints?
>>
>>
>>
>> Confusion from the client’s perspective:
>>
>>    1. As far as I know, I’m a public client, and don’t know anything
>>    about mTLS, but the IT admins installed client certs in their users’
>>    browsers and the AS expects to use that to authenticate me.
>>    2. My AS metadata parser crashed because the mTLS-only AS omitted
>>    token_endpoint_uri.
>>    3. My AS metadata parser crashed because it didn’t expect to
>>    encounter a JSON object as a parameter value.
>>    4. The mTLS-only AS didn’t provide a value for mtls_endpoints, what
>>    do I do?
>>    5. I don’t know what that “m” means, but they told me to use HTTPS,
>>    so I should use the one with “tls” in its name, right?
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, you can write normative text that answers most of these. But you’ll
>> have to clearly cover a lot of similar-but-slightly-different scenarios and
>> be very explicit. And implementers will still get it wrong. The metadata
>> change introduces opportunities for confusion and failure that do not exist
>> now, and forces them on everyone who supports mTLS. In contrast, the 307
>> redirect is only required when an AS wants to support both, and is
>> unambiguous in its behavior and meaning.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>
>> AWS Identity
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Brian Campbell <bcampbell=40pingidentity....@dmarc.ietf.org>
>> *Date: *Friday, February 1, 2019 at 3:17 PM
>> *To: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richa...@amazon.com>
>> *Cc: *George Fletcher <gffle...@aol.com>, oauth <oauth@ietf.org>
>> *Subject: *[UNVERIFIED SENDER] Re: [OAUTH-WG] MTLS and in-browser
>> clients using the token endpoint
>>
>>
>>
>> It doesn't seem like that confusing or large of a change to me - if the
>> client is doing MTLS and the given endpoint is present in `mtls_endpoints`,
>> then it uses that one.  Otherwise it uses the regular endpoint. It gives an
>> AS a lot of flexibility in deployment options. I personally think getting a
>> 307 approach deployed and working would be more complicated and error
>> prone.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is a minority use case at the moment but there are forces in play,
>> like the push for increased security in general and to have javascript
>> clients use the code flow, that suggest it won't be terribly unusual to see
>> an AS that wants to support MTLS clients and javascript/spa clients at the
>> same time.
>>
>>
>>
>> I've personally wavered back and forth in this thread on whether or not
>> to add the new metadata (or something like it). With my reasoning each way
>> kinda explained somewhere back in the 40 or so messages that make up this
>> thread.  But it seems like the rough consensus of the group here is in
>> favor of it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 3:18 PM Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna=
>> 40amazon....@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>
>> This strikes me as a very prominent and confusing change to support what
>> seems to be a minority use case. I’m getting a headache just thinking about
>> the text needed to clarify when the AS should provide `mtls_endpoints` and
>> when the client should use that versus using `token_endpoint.` Why is the
>> 307 status code insufficient to cover the case where a single AS supports
>> both mTLS and non-mTLS?
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>
>> AWS Identity
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *OAuth <oauth-boun...@ietf.org> on behalf of Brian Campbell
>> <bcampbell=40pingidentity....@dmarc.ietf.org>
>> *Date: *Friday, February 1, 2019 at 1:31 PM
>> *To: *George Fletcher <gffletch=40aol....@dmarc.ietf.org
>> <40aol....@dmarc...ietf.org>>
>> *Cc: *oauth <oauth@ietf.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [OAUTH-WG] MTLS and in-browser clients using the token
>> endpoint
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, that would work.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 2:28 PM George Fletcher <gffletch=
>> 40aol....@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>
>> What if the AS wants to ONLY support MTLS connections. Does it not
>> specify the optional "mtls_endpoints" and just use the normal metadata
>> values?
>>
>> On 1/15/19 8:48 AM, Brian Campbell wrote:
>>
>> It would definitely be optional, apologies if that wasn't made clear.
>> It'd be something to the effect of optional for the AS to include and
>> clients doing MTLS would use it when present in AS metadata.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 2:04 AM Dave Tonge <dave.to...@momentumft.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I'm in favour of the `mtls_endpoints` metadata parameter - although it
>> should be optional.
>>
>>
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>

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