Looking at the q&a some else mentioned it too, seems she thinks it's a 69 which makes me wonder if it's her car, how can a person not know the year vehicle you drive, it has to be registered right?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 12:58 PM
Subject: FW: when is a '70 not a '70 - ebay 160042176128
Dave and Listreaders;
[pix not attached for email list, but she got 'em]
Please fwd this with your thoughts on the matter to the poor girl who thinks that her 1970 Cutlass is a rare "transitional model Hurst" 1969 issue post but wait not a post car.
her eddress is: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
her ebay name: gearjammer5572
see the car at ebay: item # 160042176128
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=160042176128&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=006
or
http://tinyurl.com/ydj3yb
She says the VIN is 336879M431697, which SO does not match the photos.
My take on the matter is below:
..++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>From: "Christopher Witt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Cindy:
>
>Perhaps you just have the wrong photos in the ad. Perhaps you got the VIN >off the PAPERWORK, and not off the vehicle itself. I had assumed that you >knew how to find the VIN on the car itself, as you have assured me that you >are not the typical girly girl.
>
>I look at the ad for ebay # 160042176128 and I see a 1970 Cutlass...
>Not a "transitional car," nor any type of 442, let alone a Hurst. Sorry.
>
>Since you seem to be concerned about my qualifications, I assure you that I >know this era Oldsmobile inside and out, FAR better than any "tax >commisioner" or "Hollander" you may have handy. I have dismantled dozens of >cars, 100's of engines, and even rebuilt a few cars from the bare frame up. >You may wish to peruse the FAQ files on Oldsmobile thru e.g. 442.com, and >notice who wrote much of the sections on Engines and Engine Parts. I have >since learned much more about VIN's and Body Plates, and the hidden VIN >stamps and such. You -so- will not win if you try to assert more knowledge >than I have about this era Oldsmobile, so let's lay that to rest right now.
>
>The item pictured in the ebay ad #160042176128 is all 1970 model year car.
>
>Now, that's not BAD, there are many things about a 1970 that make it >desirable. The one-year issue front fenders, for example. But, if you >looked at that green car and got VIN # 336879M431697 off it... then your >car has been subjected to VIN tampering, or else EVERY SINGLE BODY PANEL >surrounding the VIN and body plate have been replaced with 1970 panels- and >that is absurd. We went over this before. The 1969 models would have >different: every piece fwd of the firewall except the hood hinges; dors; >rear quarter panels; decklid; rear bumper and brackets; etc. Can you >imagine replacing all that with 1970 parts? Neither can I.
>
>Attached is a photo of a real GM VIN rivet. Notice the scallops about the >OD.
>These rivets are generally, but not always, installed from the bottom, with >the scrunched side on top and the scalloped head visible from underside >with a flashlight. You will please ck your VIN rivets and see if they match >real GM ones. If the rivet head is on top, simply pry loose the plastic >bezel that should be in place about the VIN tag and you can then readily >see the rivets.
> If the VIN rivets do not have that feature, then it has been fiddled >with, and the police should be called in to check.
> If the VIN rivets to have scallops, and the plate actually reads >"336879M431697" then it gets interesting.
>
>The car's body plate will also state the Year of Issue: right after "ST..." >on the top line or top full line... it will say "69" for a 1969 model year >or your green car should say "70" of course. The body plate is typically >seen on the cowl, driver's side, after opening the hood.
>
>referring to the 1972 Parts Manual, based on what I see in the pix, your >car's VIN is
>332770_######, [F-85 V8 Club Coupe] or perhaps
>336770_###### [Cutlass V8 Sports Coupe (by far most likely)], or perhaps
>344770_###### [4-4-2 High Performance V8 Sports Coupe (nah, that's no 442)]
>
>Of course by now you know that this decodes as follows:
>3 = Olds division of GM
>_32 = F85, or _36 = Cutlass V8 [most likely your car], or _44 = 442 [NOT >your car]
>___77 = the POST type body style, called either Club or Sports Coupe by >Olds literature
>_____0 = last digit of year of issue; 0 = 1970; 9= 1969, etc.
>______[blank above] next is a letter indicating the GM assembly plant
>_______###### are the 6 digits of the car's sequential VIN, that car's >exact ID number
>
>The VIN you cite in the ad: 336879M431697
>says
>3= Olds,
>_36 = Cutlass V8 line
>___87 = HOLIDAY COUPE [No post *1]
>_____M = Lansing MI built.
>______431697 = the car's sequential serial number.
>
>*1- BUSTED!! This car obviously has a post and obviously is a 1970, >therefore that VIN does not go with this car. If you got that VIN off the >car itself, you have an altered VIN car and you must call the police >immediately. If you have paperwork that does not match the car, then you >need to iron that issue out with the person you bought it from.
>
>A short version of this VIN info will be found stamped into the engine >block, the trans, and 2-3 hidden locations on the frame as well. Sometimes >on the cowl under the HVAC plenum also.
> The short version leaves out the "sales code" 4 digits [2nd thru 5th >above]
> E.g., if your car's VIN [the real one, on the dash tag] is
>336770M100101, then the VIN stamp on the engine, trans, etc. will be
>30M100101, which pegs it as Olds, 1970, Lansing built [the M], and the >exact car ID #.
>
>You can EASILY ck your engine block for the stamped VIN derivative which >will tell you what year that block is, if it matches that car ["numbers >matching" is just getting started here], etc. This pad is at the front LH >corner of the motor, on the LH side, just under the cylinder head, on the >block itself. If you find the head ID number at the front left corner of >the motor, and the small coolant freeze plug right under that, keep going >down another inch or two to the vertical machined wall about 3/4 x 3" or >so. On that pad will be the engine's VIN stamp.
> Attached is a close photo of what that looks like. Attached is a pic of >one from a '68 Olds. It says
>38M246406
>which means
>3= Olds
>_8 = 1968
>__M = Lansing built
>___246406 = the original car's final 6 digits. No clue as to car's body >style.
>Note the factory machine marks on that pad.
>
>Since we are right there anyhow, let's go over the head casting ID.
>You sent me a block casting number before, "395558-2"- which says "350, >1968-1976 issue"
> [Please look over the block and head ID section of the FAQ files for all >the gory details]
>Now read the number on your car's head's corner. See attached pic of a #7 >head. Front end of the LH head, or aft end of the RH head- next to the #1 >or #8 spark plug. Where the head in my example photo has a "7", your head >will say "5" if it is a 1969 issue, or gee whiz, let me guess, "6" for 1970 >cars. [Your car is a 1970, regardless of what the VIN says, so, it will >have "6" heads unless that has been changed]
>
>Please let me know what your investigation of these numbers and -facts- >turns up.
>If your car seriously has a 1969 VIN plate, then either
>1) it has been fiddled with and the real VIN should be determined by the >stamps on the engine, trans, and frame, and of course the authorities >brought in to check LEIN for stolen, or
>
>2) it truly is a factory 1970 issued with a 1969 VIN, with all the right >VIN rivets, factory VIN stamps and such... in which case Barrett-Jackson >would be the correct auction venue, not eBay.
>
>The car is clearly not a 442, and therefore cannot be any sort of Hurst, as >your phone message to me implied. So sorry to burst that bubble.
-----------------------
Chris Witt
*the* Rocket Scientist
1303 W. Miller Rd.
Lansing MI 48911
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cell 517-449-0432 weekends or short weekday calls or leave message.
Home 517-882-9747 thru 10-11pm MI time most days
_________________________________________________________________
Get today's hot entertainment gossip http://movies.msn.com/movies/hotgossip?icid=T002MSN03A07001
[pix not attached for email list, but she got 'em]
Please fwd this with your thoughts on the matter to the poor girl who thinks that her 1970 Cutlass is a rare "transitional model Hurst" 1969 issue post but wait not a post car.
her eddress is: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
her ebay name: gearjammer5572
see the car at ebay: item # 160042176128
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=160042176128&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=006
or
http://tinyurl.com/ydj3yb
She says the VIN is 336879M431697, which SO does not match the photos.
My take on the matter is below:
..++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>From: "Christopher Witt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Cindy:
>
>Perhaps you just have the wrong photos in the ad. Perhaps you got the VIN >off the PAPERWORK, and not off the vehicle itself. I had assumed that you >knew how to find the VIN on the car itself, as you have assured me that you >are not the typical girly girl.
>
>I look at the ad for ebay # 160042176128 and I see a 1970 Cutlass...
>Not a "transitional car," nor any type of 442, let alone a Hurst. Sorry.
>
>Since you seem to be concerned about my qualifications, I assure you that I >know this era Oldsmobile inside and out, FAR better than any "tax >commisioner" or "Hollander" you may have handy. I have dismantled dozens of >cars, 100's of engines, and even rebuilt a few cars from the bare frame up. >You may wish to peruse the FAQ files on Oldsmobile thru e.g. 442.com, and >notice who wrote much of the sections on Engines and Engine Parts. I have >since learned much more about VIN's and Body Plates, and the hidden VIN >stamps and such. You -so- will not win if you try to assert more knowledge >than I have about this era Oldsmobile, so let's lay that to rest right now.
>
>The item pictured in the ebay ad #160042176128 is all 1970 model year car.
>
>Now, that's not BAD, there are many things about a 1970 that make it >desirable. The one-year issue front fenders, for example. But, if you >looked at that green car and got VIN # 336879M431697 off it... then your >car has been subjected to VIN tampering, or else EVERY SINGLE BODY PANEL >surrounding the VIN and body plate have been replaced with 1970 panels- and >that is absurd. We went over this before. The 1969 models would have >different: every piece fwd of the firewall except the hood hinges; dors; >rear quarter panels; decklid; rear bumper and brackets; etc. Can you >imagine replacing all that with 1970 parts? Neither can I.
>
>Attached is a photo of a real GM VIN rivet. Notice the scallops about the >OD.
>These rivets are generally, but not always, installed from the bottom, with >the scrunched side on top and the scalloped head visible from underside >with a flashlight. You will please ck your VIN rivets and see if they match >real GM ones. If the rivet head is on top, simply pry loose the plastic >bezel that should be in place about the VIN tag and you can then readily >see the rivets.
> If the VIN rivets do not have that feature, then it has been fiddled >with, and the police should be called in to check.
> If the VIN rivets to have scallops, and the plate actually reads >"336879M431697" then it gets interesting.
>
>The car's body plate will also state the Year of Issue: right after "ST..." >on the top line or top full line... it will say "69" for a 1969 model year >or your green car should say "70" of course. The body plate is typically >seen on the cowl, driver's side, after opening the hood.
>
>referring to the 1972 Parts Manual, based on what I see in the pix, your >car's VIN is
>332770_######, [F-85 V8 Club Coupe] or perhaps
>336770_###### [Cutlass V8 Sports Coupe (by far most likely)], or perhaps
>344770_###### [4-4-2 High Performance V8 Sports Coupe (nah, that's no 442)]
>
>Of course by now you know that this decodes as follows:
>3 = Olds division of GM
>_32 = F85, or _36 = Cutlass V8 [most likely your car], or _44 = 442 [NOT >your car]
>___77 = the POST type body style, called either Club or Sports Coupe by >Olds literature
>_____0 = last digit of year of issue; 0 = 1970; 9= 1969, etc.
>______[blank above] next is a letter indicating the GM assembly plant
>_______###### are the 6 digits of the car's sequential VIN, that car's >exact ID number
>
>The VIN you cite in the ad: 336879M431697
>says
>3= Olds,
>_36 = Cutlass V8 line
>___87 = HOLIDAY COUPE [No post *1]
>_____M = Lansing MI built.
>______431697 = the car's sequential serial number.
>
>*1- BUSTED!! This car obviously has a post and obviously is a 1970, >therefore that VIN does not go with this car. If you got that VIN off the >car itself, you have an altered VIN car and you must call the police >immediately. If you have paperwork that does not match the car, then you >need to iron that issue out with the person you bought it from.
>
>A short version of this VIN info will be found stamped into the engine >block, the trans, and 2-3 hidden locations on the frame as well. Sometimes >on the cowl under the HVAC plenum also.
> The short version leaves out the "sales code" 4 digits [2nd thru 5th >above]
> E.g., if your car's VIN [the real one, on the dash tag] is
>336770M100101, then the VIN stamp on the engine, trans, etc. will be
>30M100101, which pegs it as Olds, 1970, Lansing built [the M], and the >exact car ID #.
>
>You can EASILY ck your engine block for the stamped VIN derivative which >will tell you what year that block is, if it matches that car ["numbers >matching" is just getting started here], etc. This pad is at the front LH >corner of the motor, on the LH side, just under the cylinder head, on the >block itself. If you find the head ID number at the front left corner of >the motor, and the small coolant freeze plug right under that, keep going >down another inch or two to the vertical machined wall about 3/4 x 3" or >so. On that pad will be the engine's VIN stamp.
> Attached is a close photo of what that looks like. Attached is a pic of >one from a '68 Olds. It says
>38M246406
>which means
>3= Olds
>_8 = 1968
>__M = Lansing built
>___246406 = the original car's final 6 digits. No clue as to car's body >style.
>Note the factory machine marks on that pad.
>
>Since we are right there anyhow, let's go over the head casting ID.
>You sent me a block casting number before, "395558-2"- which says "350, >1968-1976 issue"
> [Please look over the block and head ID section of the FAQ files for all >the gory details]
>Now read the number on your car's head's corner. See attached pic of a #7 >head. Front end of the LH head, or aft end of the RH head- next to the #1 >or #8 spark plug. Where the head in my example photo has a "7", your head >will say "5" if it is a 1969 issue, or gee whiz, let me guess, "6" for 1970 >cars. [Your car is a 1970, regardless of what the VIN says, so, it will >have "6" heads unless that has been changed]
>
>Please let me know what your investigation of these numbers and -facts- >turns up.
>If your car seriously has a 1969 VIN plate, then either
>1) it has been fiddled with and the real VIN should be determined by the >stamps on the engine, trans, and frame, and of course the authorities >brought in to check LEIN for stolen, or
>
>2) it truly is a factory 1970 issued with a 1969 VIN, with all the right >VIN rivets, factory VIN stamps and such... in which case Barrett-Jackson >would be the correct auction venue, not eBay.
>
>The car is clearly not a 442, and therefore cannot be any sort of Hurst, as >your phone message to me implied. So sorry to burst that bubble.
-----------------------
Chris Witt
*the* Rocket Scientist
1303 W. Miller Rd.
Lansing MI 48911
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cell 517-449-0432 weekends or short weekday calls or leave message.
Home 517-882-9747 thru 10-11pm MI time most days
_________________________________________________________________
Get today's hot entertainment gossip http://movies.msn.com/movies/hotgossip?icid=T002MSN03A07001
