Dear Klee

I read you as you were able to produce a theory of consciousness from geometric 
information. I was not aware that you operated with an objective idealism as 
ontology, which I think makes much more sense. But my question is still pending 
what does that have to with geometric information ? Is it geometry within 
consciousness?

Best

                        Søren

From: online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Klee Irwin
Sent: 11. september 2016 20:26
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com
Cc: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL
Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] RE: I hope this provokes helpful thought

Hi, Soren, I believe Stuart introduced us at TSC. Good to hear from you. You 
did not nail down exactly how I am missing this. I sent this email to Vinod, in 
case it can help clarify more of how I’m missing or not missing the 
experiential aspect you speak of. I am admitting that there is something 
“ineffable” at play. It is non-computable. There are many phenomena in nature 
that are known to exist ontologically but which most physicists agree are 
non-computable, even in principle. This is interesting. Clearly, consciousness 
falls into that category of non-computable things. Penrose and many others have 
expounded upon this. I am suggesting that the experience of consciousness and 
recognizing symbolic meaning extends down to the Planck length and need not be 
done by animals like us alone. The best candidate for such an entity is a sort 
of pan-consciousness which is logical because there is no upward limit on 
emergent consciousness and, given even time, whatever is possible is 
inevitable. Such an emergent pan-consciousness from a self-organizing universe 
of abstract information can also logically have multiple measuring or vantage 
points, even down to the Planck length, just as we can have two eyes as 
different vantage points. And this emergent thing, this universal 
consciousness, can be the origin of the geometric code from where it began. Be 
careful not to get stuck in the chicken or the egg false question. There is an 
allowed mathematical logic where A causes B, which causes C, which causes A, 
even though this is counter intuitive to our view of linear time.

I do not think I miss the need as you suggest. We just don’t understand one 
another yet. Human’s don’t perceive this geometric information down at the 
Planck scale.  We have another aspect of experiential consciousness that is 
emergent from the underlying system. We use eyes, ears and probably even 
non-local psi information to form massive composite experiences of “redness”, 
etc that are never the same experience twice. So in no way do I miss the subtle 
nature of this composite form of experiential consciousness that you speak of. 
Or at least I cannot see how yet from your short note.




Dear Vinod Sehgal,

Thank you for your response. We should have a discussion free of religion. I’d 
like to comment as a scientist and philosopher. But if you tell me this or that 
is correct or incorrect because you insist that Vedic philosophy is the master, 
then of course, all I can do is back off and respect your freedom. But I cannot 
discuss logic. So because I know you are scientific in addition to your Vedic 
beliefs, I will speak to that scientific side. I am spiritual. And I believe in 
much of the Vedic thought because I found it to be true via scientific inquiry.

But the issue we might have disagreement over is this: I do not like religious 
teachings that say a God from outside the universe created everything. It’s 
separatist and non-holistic. Instead, I see the oroboros view as logical, where 
we create God and god creates us. We are emergent phenomena from simple things. 
This you can surely agree. For example, the millions of chemicals in your body 
are emergent from the self-organization of 81 stable elements. And those 
elements are self-organizations of quarks and electrons, etc.

Self-organization and emergence have no upper limit. And consciousness emerges 
from this self-organization. The top of the evolution is a collective God-like 
universal consciousness. So I’m saying God emerges. Now, I’m also saying 
everything is consciousness. Earlier I said “thought”. But they are not exactly 
the same thing. Let us go backwards now… We can reverse down through the 
cascade of emergent complexity back down through the human and the elements and 
the quarks and electrons and down toward the Planck scale of reality, where the 
pixilated “code” may exist. We are saying that there is a simple geometric 
code. My group works on it with spirit-guides or discarnate beings interested 
in helping mankind at this time. I myself came into this incarnation to do this 
mission. That is all our philosophy or believe and can be discarded while still 
following my logic. So we’ve reversed down to a geometric code. The symbols are 
geometric shape. They are made of thought or consciousness. And they behave 
according to language (code).

So where do these primordial thoughts of symbols and code come from? They nest 
within the emergent mind of the universal collective consciousness.

PRETEND, you can imagine hypothetically that is true or at least a better model 
than some Judeo-Christian type philosophy.

So, let us take inventory of what I’m saying:


1.       Everything is consciousness.

2.       This means physical things are consciousness as is God as are you and 
me and the code I speak of.

3.       Everything co-creates everything. But there are two special parts. The 
tail and the head if you’re familiar with the oroboros image. And in this 
metaphor, the head is the collective consciousness of the universe and the tail 
is the simple code from which it emerges. The code cannot exist without the 
collective consciousness. And the collective consciousness cannot emerge if not 
for the rest of reality.

You said, “…there is no likelihood of its decoding”. We’ll I am made of the 
collective consciousness and associated with beings not in physical form. It is 
not 100% clear that your logic is airtight on why animals like us made of God 
cannot know the nature of the code. Vinod, what if the code is gorgeously 
elegant and simple? What if God was open minded to part of itself (us) 
understanding this simple code that a child may be able to understand?

Note: consciousness cannot be computed. Almost nothing can. For example, you 
are familiar with a Turing Machine. Even in principle, all the energy in the 
universe dedicated to just one massive computer cannot compute the oscillation 
interactions of the molecules in just one cubic mm of your skin. The notion of 
non-computability is well known. It’s interesting too, philosophically because 
non-computable things exist even though they cannot be computed. For example, 
if a materialist neurologist who has a little math background can be shown why 
even her notion of mechanical based brain originating consciousness cannot be 
computed due to exponentially non-computable combinatorics. And yet, she will 
marvel on how the emergent behavior, the thoughts and states of consciousness, 
exist and yet cannot be computed.

So in my view, there is a spiritual type beauty. God’s consciousness as well as 
yours, as a sub-space of that larger consciousness, is so fantastically 
emergent and complex that it cannot be computed even in principle. That is a 
sacred thought.

I’m not sure exactly why you think the code is so complex we cannot know it 
(since you do not know the code or how complex it is). But the general trend in 
this glorious universe is that things get simpler and are in evolutionary type 
hierarchies. This concept is well established in Vedic philosophy, as you know. 
What is not computable are the actions of the code.

Our view, scientifically, is that the God consciousness exists as a large 
number of separate vantage points that choose in the code, like “eyes” or like 
the idea that you can view through two different eyes at the same time, where 
each as a different perspective or angle on the world. The collective 
consciousness has many vantage points that play “choosing” roles in this 
geometric code we speak of.

In any event, we intend to show that this quasicrystal code is rigorous and 
will make scientific predations. It will unify the notions of collective 
consciousness along with the unification of general relativity with quantum 
mechanics. It will open the world’s mind eventually to our thinking. Clearly, 
our thinking is 90% aligned.






From: 
online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com<mailto:online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com> 
[mailto:online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Søren Brier
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2016 4:29 AM
To: 
Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>
Cc: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL 
<vinodsehgal1...@gmail.com<mailto:vinodsehgal1...@gmail.com>>
Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] RE: I hope this provokes helpful thought

Dear Klee

You completely miss the nature of the experiential consciousness we need in 
order to perceive information and geometry.

                                                    Best
                                                                                
           Søren   Brier

From: 
online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com<mailto:online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com> 
[mailto:online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Klee Irwin
Sent: 10. september 2016 23:29
To: 
Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>
Cc: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL
Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] I hope this provokes helpful thought

Guys (and gals), I hope this helps. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILUlqd6O0MQ&feature=youtu.be

No need to worry about understanding the physics part of this presentation. The 
salient point for our discussion forum is the notion of what information is. As 
I’ve previously said, if we are to hypothesize that the Vedic and Aborigional, 
etc. view that reality is made of thought or consciousness is true and is 
related to the more materialist oriented view that reality is 
“information-theoretic”, we can play with a thought:

If reality is made of consciousness, then apparently consciousness is behaving 
mathematically – specifically according to some unknown geometric code, since 
every possible measurement you can conceive of has a geometric component.
Accordingly, we may ask as scientists and philosophers, “Can we know that 
geometric code (i.e., language) by which the universe expresses itself?”

As so many here have commented on during the last many months, there are 
definitional discrepancies that sometimes make it appear that we are 
disagreeing when, in fact, we have moved too fast without first synchronizing a 
common set of definitions. For our group of mathematicians and physicists 
working on this general problem, we deduce that consciousness deals in 
information, i.e., awareness or thought. Even the choice of being aware of 
“everything” or “nothingness” is itself an idea or thought or choice of what to 
be aware of. In this way, we may be able to reconcile the terms “consciousness” 
and “information”. One cannot have “information” without consciousness, choice 
and observation (i.e., “measurement”). And so, one may discard the term 
“information” temporarily for sake of clarity or finding connection between 
English terms. That term may be replaced by “choice” or “choice of awareness”.

Now, in the universe of all thought or information, there is a special class of 
symbolism or code with ultra-low subjectivity – geometric symbolism/language. 
Such an abstract code made of thought can form thought itself, even notions of 
emergent “universal consciousness”.

For those interested, this article published in JCR is interesting: 
http://www.quantumgravityresearch.org/portfolio/hard-problem-of-consciousness/

Klee Irwin
www.QuantumGravityResearch.org<http://www.QuantumGravityResearch.org>


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Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer

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Sponsorship and Donations for Vedanta and Science Dialogue: 
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Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: 
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Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: 
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Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: 
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