Tina, I don’t know what the rules are for referencing from forums. I personally have no problem with you referencing anything that I write (I’m just doing my duty). But as for what the “rules” are you should check with who you’re writing for. And there are online sources that provide citation tips, for example, whether your referencing (citing) APA or Chicago style. Here’s Citation Machine that I’ve used in the past: http://www.citationmachine.net/apa/cite-a-website
From: online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com [mailto:online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Tina LIndhard Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2017 7:15 PM To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Which came first, consciousness or the brain? Dear Stephen and others, I have posted very little on these exchanges of ideas, maybe because I need much more time to really understand what everyone is saying and the implications involved. So when I have grasped something, the matter in hand has moved in at an rate I just cannot keep up with. However I do make notes of ideas I find relevant and interesting. I am interested in the comment of Stephen (although I do not agree with all of it) for a paper I am writing and I would like to quote from it - what are the norms for quoting from these non formal exchanges of opinion and if it is permitted, how would I reference the idea. Or should I just contact the person directly for his or her permission I thank you kindly - Tina Tina Lindhard PhD Consciousness Studies (IUPS) President CCAEspaña CICA: Chair of Consciousness Research consol.t...@gmail.com www.tinalindhard.org <http://www.tinalindhard.com/Prashamsa/Index.html> On 09 Aug 2017, at 18:36, 'Asingh2384' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com> wrote: <https://www.boxbe.com/overview> Boxbe http://www.boxbe.com/stfopen?tc_serial=31965772661&tc_rand=978669378&utm_source=stf&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ANNO_CLEANUP_ADD&utm_content=001 This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com) <https://www.boxbe.com/popup?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.boxbe.com%2Fcleanup%3Fkey%3DJpphVt7oR%252BxBQecDQEFjqXKJpNMlPRgwemLLa1RhaWw%253D%26token%3DQe7v9fn1jWXCNFL5SFC4Yfubk2z6vtPHwueqvWCNRrg6OXOH3wO4UdtlmusKMWVzWngkPMBw6xMDcCgQ59izzJnQQTOoatj55chnqhIb6JCaTWXFZqf%252FNQN%252BNAhceevMBXWzVbzaNrjogkdLP89AWBJY2o6GHGnJ&tc_serial=31965772661&tc_rand=978669378&utm_source=stf&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ANNO_CLEANUP_ADD&utm_content=001> Add cleanup rule | <http://blog.boxbe.com/general/boxbe-automatic-cleanup?tc_serial=31965772661&tc_rand=978669378&utm_source=stf&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ANNO_CLEANUP_ADD&utm_content=001> More info Dear Stephen: Well said: “….The thing is, though, what is it that enables each and every neuron in the brain to have immediate access to the collective, so that it can act in a timely and productive manner? Is there something analogous to a city’s information technology (media, telephones, computer network), in the brain, to accomplish this unity? ….… each neuron acts in its own interests, but also in the interests of the collective, and it is the collective that informs each neuron of its options… … each neuron has to receive its motivations from elsewhere beyond a top-down Designer’s “genetic blueprint” that defines an electrical circuit.” Each neuron has its own mind just like each quantum particle has a mind and free will to make a choice within the governance of the universal laws of conservation of mass/energy/space/time. The laws govern the observed unity and collective order in cosmos and represent the consciousness or awareness of the universe. The behaviors of neurons and particles leading up to the manifested relative temporal material and un-manifested absolute eternal non-material realities are founded on the universal consciousness or free will or awareness as evidenced by the observed spontaneity (non-causality) of the universal laws. Best Regards Avtar Singh, Sc.D. Alumni, MIT Author of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality" -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Jarosek <sjaro...@iinet.net.au> To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com> Sent: Wed, Aug 9, 2017 4:46 am Subject: RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Which came first, consciousness or the brain? >”In fact, the old split-brain experiments are also very interesting.” Yes, they are very interesting. It is also curious, to me, that the discourse around split-brain experiments doesn’t seem to venture beyond the two separated hemispheres. At the risk of overstating the obvious… Is it not self-evident that you can probably keep on dividing the brain even into functional specializations, to observe that each subdivision itself behaves as a unity? Indeed, you can keep on dividing the brain into quarters, into eighths, and keep going right down to the cellular level, to arrive at the autonomous behavior of each neuron. It is exactly what would happen if you divided a human city, as a culture, right down to the level of each human. The important implication here is that the brain is nothing like a computer, and everything like a colony, like a city of people. And just as a city has its own functional specializations (business districts, industrial zones, residential suburbs, defense, government, etc), so too, does a brain. You can knock out any one of the brain’s functional specializations, and the brain will still continue to function, more or less, with other neurons being recruited from their usual roles, to compensate for the absence of the missing functional specialization. Just like what would happen in a city, were any one of its specializations removed. The thing is, though, what is it that enables each and every neuron in the brain to have immediate access to the collective, so that it can act in a timely and productive manner? Is there something analogous to a city’s information technology (media, telephones, computer network), in the brain, to accomplish this unity? In a city, our information technology is crucial to informing each of us of our options, in a timely manner, and this provides our city with a cultural identity and unity of purpose. In the brain, I don’t think that synapse connections, completing something analogous to wiring circuits, are enough. Hence my interest in DNA entanglement… each neuron acts in its own interests, but also in the interests of the collective, and it is the collective that informs each neuron of its options. And the key to providing each neuron with timely access to the collective is entanglement, because old-fashioned electrical circuits, on their own, are not enough (and how might the Hameroff/Penrose Orch-OR hypothesis relate to this?). Each neuron is a bug, like any other bug, and it has its own interests to pursue, while at the same time contributing to the interests of the collective… each neuron has to receive its motivations from elsewhere beyond a top-down Designer’s “genetic blueprint” that defines an electrical circuit. Or to state all this yet another way… there is no way that a computer can happen in nature… the law of entropy forbids it. Or yet another perspective… a culture is, in a very real sense, very much like a thought (a topic that I introduce in my 2001 Semiotica paper, The law of association of habits). From: <mailto:online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com> online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com [ <mailto:online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com> mailto:online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Werbos Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2017 1:27 AM To: <mailto:online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com> online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Which came first, consciousness or the brain? I have to agree with Whit that the homunculus assumption is ever more misleading when we look deeply into what happens in the brain, and even more when we consider the coupled system of brain and soul. Karl pribram (famous to some because of his talk about holography, but also important because of other streams of work) was fascinated by the many types of research into blind-siding. In fact, the old split-brain experiments are also very interesting. It is possible for the left side to come up with incredible rationalizations, even as the right side has simple clear reasons for what it chooses to do. In such cases do we declare the left side conscious because it outputs socially managed words, or do we declare the right side conscious because it is actually aware and making reasonable decisions? Really, a connected brain has more of the whole system property we call consciousness sometimes, than either of the others. But treating the word "conscious" as a piece of all-embracing magic is misleading in any case; various levels of the mind simply focus on and have access to different information, and it is not such a binary type of relationship. (Though certain kind of gating or connection can often simply be off, so I shouldn't push the continuous point TOO hard. That in itself would be too binary!) Best of luck, Paul On Aug 8, 2017 5:35 PM, "Whit Blauvelt" < <mailto:w...@csmind.com> w...@csmind.com> wrote: On Tue, Aug 08, 2017 at 06:31:26PM +0000, Edwards, Jonathan wrote: > The signals we experience are arriving deep in the brain. Before that > there is no perception, no image, nothing. I'm not questioning that you represent an orthodox view from the neurology department. Nor am I questioning that the deep brain is necessary. Yet the eye and the deep brain are not separate. Nor is the eye a passive receptor. We see as much by anticipation as by reception. The deep brain, the various visual modules between it and the eyes, the eyes, and the world beyond them are all essential in normal circumstances. There are plenty of experiments now showing that even priming below the level of consciousness has a large effect on what we subsequently see or not. No doubt you've seen the film of the kids passing a basket ball back and forth, after being consciously primed to watch the passes, and missed the guy in the gorilla suit walking across the scene? I missed it! You're trying to salvage something from Descartes -- precisely the thing which led people to classify his view as a homuncular one. You're also making an argument from authority, as if Descartes is one. He was brilliant; I love his writing; but no he doesn't count as a modern authority on much. If your counter argument is going to be that we can put ourselves in an isolation tank, and there dream vividly while cut off from the eyes and world, I'll point out that that fits well with my claim that we see as much by anticipation -- which is pretty much what dreams are. Dreaming is anticipation, carried away without the check of the eyes and the senses. 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