[Winona Online Democracy] Hello Gene and Others, I wish I had more time to offer a better response to Gene's points. Instead, I'll run through a lot of points quickly, please excuse the bad grammar and other odd points. Here goes: 1. I agree with Gene, I'm overwhelmed by the volume and complexity of the topics discussed on the listserve. I too like "meatier" macro issues. 2. I couldn't tell from the underlying tone of your message what you were saying or implying about what or how I teach. I'll assume the best and focus on clarifying and expanding some points. I view our government as a fantastic advance in human history. In my room you will find a copy of the Declaration of Independance and other American documents even though I do not teach American history. I do that becasue they are powerful and important documents I want around to remind myself and my students of what is possible. I only wish more people understood just how powerful and "radical" the documents were then in history and still are today. At the same time, I view our governement as an on-going project, a work in progress. I strongly believe our government is a watered down and diluted version of democracy. What else can you say about a system of government when only half of the people vote during the best elections?! A government that can build nuclear weapons in secret. A government that can allow 1/5th of our children to live in poverty in this country, not to mention how we contribute to poverty, starvation, and violence around the world. Some would say that low voter turnout is a sign that the masses are content. The same thing was said of slaves living in their political systems. I hold my government to high standards. How does the saying go, "if better is possible, then good is not acceptable....". You are right about the limitations of Ancient Athens. Half of the population were slaves, women could not vote, citzenship was restricted, and only a small number of people actually took part in most major decisions. At the same time, what the elites had was remarkable...real participatory democracy at different times. What was good for them, is good for everyone else too. Some have said that American History is a case of expanding what the "we" in the phrase, "we the people" means. Rights and priviledges that once only applied to a small number of people have slowly expanded to more and more people. Even though Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner, his words are still pure poetry to me, I just want to apply them to everyone in today's world. Our Constitution did enhance some aspects of the Greek version of democracy but we also fail in some comparisons. I do not honestly think our govt. is very legitimate if only 1/2 of the people vote. I would love to see candidates agree that no one would assume office unless 90% of the people voted. That would cause some serious systemic changes. Hollywood entertainment passing as democractic discourse would not be enough. We can't even vote for the best candidates because it is not "practical". Enough rambling on that soap box. Is anyone still awake or reading this? :-> 3. I agree with the suggestion of term limits. In my opinion, to believe that the current system is not biased and does not give many advantages to incumbents is to ignore reality. 4. I agree with the part about getting the national government out of our daily lives. At the same time, I think we should be a huge part of local and regional govt. I fear both big business and big govt. While local govt. and small businesses have their own disadvantages, I think they are the foundations of a true democracy. Yes, get big govt. out of our lives but also get big businesses out of our govt. and lives too. Call it what you may, part Green, part libertarian, part Anarchist, or idealistic. :-> Again, what we must do is not simple or straightforward so the mainstream media probably can not deal with the issue, it's too complex for them. One thing that would get us started in the right direction would be a reduction in the work week. Those of us who can "afford" to show up must realize this a luxury many people do not have or were never encouraged to do. Almost all of our schooling and government is a spectator sport. We have no practice at governing ourselves. This has turned into a long letter. Consider it a tome or tranquilizer. Gene, thank you for your thoughtful response. Pursue the Good, :-> Dwayne ----------------- >From: "Gene Thiele" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Dwayne Voegeli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: [Winona] Distractions and Democracy >Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 21:39:58 -0500 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 > >I have to this point in time been overwhelmed by the variety, complexity, >and volume of local issues discussed in Winona Online Democracy. I do much >better on broader or macro types of issues. Now, Dwayne Voegeli has >provided me with an excellent opportunity to provide my two cents worth on >our participation in our democracy. > >First, I'm hoping Dwayne doesn't characterize our government as 'watered >down' or 'diluted' democracy to his students. Ancient Athens' version of >democracy was majority rule, as long as you weren't a woman or a slave. Our >country has withstood both violent and non-violent, protracted struggles to >remedy the flaws evident in ancient Greek government. I guess I would >characterize our version of democracy, (thanks to an enduring constitution >intended to protect the minority), as a refinement to or enhancement of the >Greek version. > >Second, in representative democracy we depend on others to do our bidding >for us. The impracticality of all people voting on all issues should be >'self evident.' Unfortunately, our citizen legislatures have turned into >professional special interest groups, led by lawyers, bureaucRATS, and out >of touch academicians who create such clumsy, poorly formulated laws that >the supreme court is asked to resolve all of the major issues of the day. >And we sit back and complain about an 'activist' court. > >So how do we, the people, regain our voice. I suppose term limits would >help, but then we lose whatever expertise or influence our representatives >may have developed. We could try increasing our personal day-to-day >involvement, but that would affect our family life and may have little >effect at the national level. note: I do agree with Dwayne that decreased >extra-circulars (sports, clubs, etc.) would enhance our family lives, even >if we all just sat in our living rooms or kitchens and read the newspaper >with our kids at night. > >Is no solution at hand? Maybe...if we could reduce the involvement of the >national government in our everyday life, and transfer the cost, >responsibility, and tax base to local authorities, we could at least empower >our local officials. These are the people who are our friends and >neighbors. They share our cares and concerns, and maybe even a common value >system. Maybe government, at least local government would be a reflection >of ourselves and not the NEA, NRA, UAW, ABA, or any of those other faceless >acronyms. > >In the meantime, if you don't vote, don't...well don't complain. It's the >only voice you have right now. > >gene thiele > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Dwayne Voegeli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 9:19 AM >Subject: [Winona] Distractions and Democracy > > >> [Winona Online Democracy] >> >> Hello Duane (Peterson) and Others, >> >> I agree that we have many "distractions" in today's world. >> >> At the same time, some of them are very important distractions. Either >> volunteering or helping out with Boy/Girl Scouts, church youth groups, >> youth task forces, PTA's, local service clubs, t-ball coaching, mentorship >> programs, environemental groups, etc. are all the stuff of a real >> democracy. I don't think distractions are the problem, except for goofy >> football games (I played football in high school and college) and sleazy >> talk shows (I love to talk). >> >> As Jeremy Rifkin and many other authors have pointed out, we need to take >> back more of our "civic time". To put in bluntly, we need to work less >and >> spend more time with our families, churches, community groups, gardens, >and >> ourselves. The way the world is is not the way it should be or has to be. >> >> I believe that most of the solutions to most of the world's challenges >> already exist in books or people's minds. The problem is that most of do >> not have enough time to learn about the solutions or to help out with >them. >> >> Time, time, time. >> >> I believe the solutions do not lie with big business or big government. >> The solutions lie with small and medium sized groups of common citizens. >> >> We must reduce our "average" work week. >> >> It is impossible if only a few industries or sectors of our economy >attempt >> to do it but it would work if it applied to all people and businesses. >> >> Imagine what we could do if we had more civic time. >> >> Dwayne >> >> ----------------- >> >> >> >From: "Duane Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >To: "Dwayne Voegeli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >Subject: Re: [Winona] Letter to the Editor >> >Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 13:31:30 -0500 >> >MIME-Version: 1.0 >> >X-Priority: 3 >> >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >> >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 >> > >> >Dwayne, We have too many distractions these days. The world is run by >> >those who show up for the meetings. That was how I got involved in >> >politics --by being one of those who showed up for the meetings. This >> >online democracy should be a part of the answer. I hope that it works. >> >Duane M. Peterson >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: "Dwayne Voegeli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 9:26 AM >> >Subject: [Winona] Letter to the Editor >> > >> > >> >> [Winona Online Democracy] >> >> >> >> > >> >> >So why do you think people don't attend city council meetings or take >> >much >> >> >of an interest in local elections? Are there ways to improve this >> >> >situation? >> >> >> >> ---------- >> >> >> >> Yes, it was a great article by Mr. Selleck about pedestrian rights. >> >> >> >> Steve Kranz asked a good question about low attendance at local >government >> >> meetings. >> >> >> >> I always try to encourage my students to resist the temptation to look >for >> >> simple answers to complex problems so I want to be careful about >offering >> >a >> >> "simple" solution myself. >> >> >> >> I believe one of the major reasons is that we live in a representative >and >> >> not a participatory "democracy". We are turned into spectators who are >> >> viewing others having all the fun. I believe this leads to a possible >> >> danger of large numbers of us becoming civic couch potatoes. >> >> >> >> If we remember what democracy was originally like in Ancient Athens, we >> >> would see a participatory form of democratic government very different >> >than >> >> our watered down and dilluted version. >> >> >> >> Is an active, "hands-on" government of, by, and for the people possible >> >today? >> >> >> >> I would reply "yes" but it would require us to think outside of many >boxes >> >> and to dream a little bit. >> >> >> >> What do you all think? >> >> >> >> Dwayne >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------------- >> >> This message was posted to the Winona Online Democracy Project. >> >> Please visit http://onlinedemocracy.winona.org to subscribe or >> >unsubscribe. >> >> Please sign all messages posted to this list with your actual name. >> >> Posting of commercial solicitations is not allowed on this list. >> >> Report problems to [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> ---------------- >> This message was posted to the Winona Online Democracy Project. >> Please visit http://onlinedemocracy.winona.org to subscribe or >unsubscribe. >> Please sign all messages posted to this list with your actual name. >> Posting of commercial solicitations is not allowed on this list. >> Report problems to [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> > ---------------- This message was posted to the Winona Online Democracy Project. 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